Fork springs

Hi,
This is my first post.
I'm from Montreal, Canada. I just bought a used 600 Honda Silverwing FSC600A with one thousand and fifty kilometers.

I just had my 2006-Silverwing's forks rebuilt with Honda parts, new oilseals and dust seals, c clips, washers under the seals and Amsoil fork oil. The thicker oil they sell as opposed to their lighter weight. The shop said for safety that I should change the fork springs after they did the job. The scooter only has 1,050k. One thousand and fifty kilometers. Does anyone think there not familiar with the way the forks are with this bike? Or are they trying to make me spend money unnecessarly? They said I would have to spend all the money over again to rebuild the front shocks. If I did do it couldn't the springs be put in from the top with out taking them off the bike? What fork springs would be a good choice? Thanks members for you help.

The standard springs are pretty weedy, and a lot of fork travel is used up just sitting on the bike, so less is left to deal with bumps. A good spring should use 30-35mm of travel when the rider is aboard, the stock set-up (even at 1050km) will be a lot more than that. It's not necessarily a safety issue however, just the way the Swing has been designed by Honda.

My Swing has 70,000km and I have experimented with 8mm longer preload spacers which helps keep the front end up but doesn't stop the bottoming out; it also makes re-fitting the caps quite challenging. I've just ordered some 0.85kg/mm springs from Racetech which I believe will be correct to improve the suspension action. Others have used the progressive springs from Hyperpro and these have a good online reputation.

Thanks so much for your very excellent help.

I do appreciate the logic of changing the springs while you're in there and would most likely done it myself, but the springs will not be damaged at that milage.
The fact they didn't suggest it during the work does not reflect well on them.

I know the topic of fork springs comes up a lot on here, and it's still something that both puzzles and amuses me. I've never given them much thought, from the trailing link forks on the Honda Helix back in the Nineties, to the tele forks of a Majesty 250, 400 and 650 Burgmans, Silver Wing, and coming up to two years on the 300 Forza.

I can't think of a single time when I thought to myself even on dodgy road surfaces, the tele forks or fork springs aren't up to the job. Not once, and I've taken all of these maxi scooters (apart from the Majesty) over challenging roads like Hardknott and Wrynose Passes in Cumbria, and twisty bikers roads at home and abroad.

I'm not saying I'm better than anyone, just that I'm either unaware or blissfully ignorant of a problem with the fork springs of any maxi I've owned. That's including the Silver Wing I bought new in 2010 and rode until I downsized for the new Forza 300 in 2018.

Yet owners of 'new to them' Silver Wings pop up regularly on here complaining about the front forks, or enquiring about changing to HyperPro fork springs before it seems they've used up their first full tank of fuel.

I agree with Meldrew on this one. Most people buy the Silver Wing and think they have a Hayabusa. I bought my Wing new and rode it to see what I had and learned to love it. Buying used, perhaps others think there is something wrong  with the the scoot, not being used to it. My suggestion is to ride the bike for a while before throwing money at it. You might decide you like it as-is or that you bought the wrong bike.  My two cents.

Currently on 11th new maxi scooter since 1990---SilverWing, had two, over 90,000 miles, from Key West to Alaska, never fork spring trouble or for that matter fork seal problem----always remembering I am on Scooter....when new, a very expensive one!

Making performance mods, etc to SilverWing kinda a waste of money in my world. Givi Adjustable windshield solves, for the most part, one of the biggest drawbacks of the scooter with stock shield. Seat changes not necessary if you are in shape/ride a lot and not too fat.

I'm with the curmudgeons on this, I've not found the front end wanting on my SW at any time.
Although that's not to say I wouldn't try different springs if I had the forks apart and sufficient spare beer tokens - but that's just basic monkey curiosity (you can take the monkey out of the tree and all that).

I have some electrical wires that are zip tied to the triple tree. I've always liked the way the front suspension handles the bad roads here on Honolulu, but lately I've noticed scratched marks on my front fender caused by the wires and/or zip ties. That would mean that I don't notice when my bike bottoms out and the top of my fender makes contact with my electrical wiring. May do the zip tie around each fork and see how much of the front forks can handle.

Stock springs have a 3-4 inch spacer at the top less travel before bottomed out. Hyperpro is just a spring no spacer. All spring = more travel before it's fully compressed. It really depends on your weight and riding style. Sags to much a stiffer spring will help. Full Synthetic like Amsoil all the better for a wide range of temps and consistency. Forks don't really get hot like a shock can.

Nice avatars Curmudgeons.

Paul Thede, founder of Race Tech motorcycle suspension, has a saying the " the best you've ridden is the best you know". I've got motorcycles with great suspension that just swallow bumps like they are not there; these feel plush to ride yet don't get knocked off line by a really big bump. My VTR weighs just about the same as the Swing and uses the same diameter forks, yet is so much calmer on the road.

By contrast, the Swing feels every bump and divot and feels like it passes most of the road shock back to the chassis. I know the forks in mine are 100% sound (I've recently had the pleasure of replacing fork seals, bushings and oil) and work smoothly at a standstill, yet they are not very good. I know they are damping rod forks not cartridges, but I'm still confident they have much better performance waiting to be found with some simple mods.

Yippee! The new router from Plusnet has finally arrived and it's game on again.

It seems that the ones that complain about the forks on the Silver Wing are first time maxi scooter owners. They've usually came from years of riding motorcycles and in a lot of cases they've only bought a Silver Wing because of arthritic wrists, knees, bad backs or whatever.

So when they've bought it they're under the impression they've bought a twist n' go motorcycle. No more multiple gear changes that'll save their clutch hand, and they can stretch put the knackered knees as they're not changing gears and pressing the rear brake with their foot.

All well and good, but what they can't seem to get their heads round is the fact that they're no longer riding a motorcycle but a maxi scooter. The same maxi scooters they viewed with derision and probably took the piss out of for years just because they weren't proper motorcycles. But time has marched on and you'd think they'd put some miles in adjusting to riding one.



But they don't, they join this forum and I read posts like 'I've just bought this 20** Silver Wing and I love it, but'... the front forks seem very weak, how do you get the Silverwing onto it's main stand? I'm pressing the front brake lever and it still won't start, the rear shocks are too soft. What's the correct tyre pressures, I didn't close the seat properly and overnight that little light has flattened the battery, etc, etc.

As for Paul Thede founder of Race Tech motorcycle suspension, who I'd say the average maxi scoote rider has never heard of. He'll make his money selling suspension upgrades to weekend club racers and Sunday morning throttle jockeys, who buy into that. Not the average maxi scooter rider who's got a few years riding under their belt.

The main and most popular upgrade and modification for the discerning Silver Wing owner is changing that useless OE screen for the Givi Airflow, now that is money well spent.

silvercat600 wrote:

Hi,
This is my first post.
I'm from Montreal, Canada. I just bought a used 600 Honda Silverwing FSC600A with one thousand and fifty kilometers.

I just had my 2006-Silverwing's forks rebuilt with Honda parts, new oilseals and dust seals, c clips, washers under the seals and Amsoil fork oil. The thicker oil they sell as opposed to their lighter weight. The shop said for safety that I should change the fork springs after they did the job. The scooter only has 1,050k. One thousand and fifty kilometers. Does anyone think there not familiar with the way the forks are with this bike? Or are they trying to make me spend money unnecessarly? They said I would have to spend all the money over again to rebuild the front shocks. If I did do it couldn't the springs be put in from the top with out taking them off the bike?  What fork springs would be a good choice? Thanks members for you help.

Hi bud, to answer your questions :-

" The shop said for safety that I should change the fork springs after they did the job."   ......  Any worthwhile mechanic would advise of extra work needed at stripdown & inspection NOT after re-assembly.

"Does anyone think there not familiar with the way the forks are with this bike?" ....... They are very likely to expect the spring rating of a "real motorbike" rather than the comfort level of a touring maxi scooter spring

"Or are they trying to make me spend money unnecessarly? ".......  Yep, at 1050kl they are hardly 'run in'

"They said I would have to spend all the money over again to rebuild the front shocks. If I did do it couldn't the springs be put in from the top with out taking them off the bike?"  .......  That sounds worryingly like they removed a lot of 'tupperware' to get the forks out?    If the bodywork was removed first then yes the springs could be changed by simply removing the cap (after loosening the top 'pinchbolt'

"What fork springs would be a good choice?" ........ 3 choices :
1) OEM (my favourite)
2) Hyperpro (if you want a more 'real motorbik'e feel)
3) Go to a company that can actually do the calculation & have a constant rate spring wound that is correct for your weight on that particular machine (expensive, but the very best option)

This thread is worth a read bud .... https://www.silverwing600.com/t10477-fitting-hyperpro-front-springs

Meldrew wrote:

Yippee! The new router from Plusnet has finally arrived and it's game on again.

It seems that the ones that complain about the forks on the Silver Wing are first time maxi scooter owners. They've usually came from years of riding motorcycles and in a lot of cases they've only bought a Silver Wing because of arthritic wrists, knees, bad backs or whatever.

So when they've bought it they're under the impression they've bought a twist n' go motorcycle. No more multiple gear changes that'll save their clutch hand, and they can stretch put the knackered knees as they're not changing gears and pressing the rear brake with their foot.

All well and good, but what they can't seem to get their heads round is the fact that they're no longer riding a motorcycle but a maxi scooter. The same maxi scooters they viewed with derision and probably took the piss out of for years just because they weren't proper motorcycles. But time has marched on and you'd think they'd put some miles in adjusting to riding one.



But they don't, they join this forum and I read posts like 'I've just bought this 20** Silver Wing and I love it, but'... the front forks seem very weak, how do you get the Silverwing onto it's main stand? I'm pressing the front brake lever and it still won't start, the rear shocks are too soft. What's the correct tyre pressures, I didn't close the seat properly and overnight that little light has flattened the battery, etc, etc.

As for Paul Thede founder of Race Tech motorcycle suspension, who I'd say the average maxi scoote rider has never heard of. He'll make his money selling suspension upgrades to weekend club racers and Sunday morning throttle jockeys, who buy into that. Not the average maxi scooter rider who's got a few years riding under their belt.

The main and most popular upgrade and modification for the discerning Silver Wing owner is changing that useless OE screen for the Givi Airflow, now that is money well spent.

Spoken like the true resident Curmudgeon! Love your work, Meldrew!

I'm currently waiting for the results of my finals with the Worshipful Company of Curmudgeons, and this is part of the curriculum. So I have my good days and bad days.

I'm currently waiting for the results of my finals with the Worshipful Company of Curmudgeons, and this is part of the curriculum. So I have my good days Neutral and bad days. Neutral

Hell by now I thought you had your Doctorate.

Mech 1 twa wrote:

I'm currently waiting for the results of my finals with the Worshipful Company of Curmudgeons, and this is part of the curriculum. So I have my good days Neutral and bad days. Neutral

Hell by now I thought you had your Doctorate.

It's a common mistake thinking that the WCoC gives out it's ranks like a college or university.

Anyway since my last post I've been reminded in no uncertain terms that the First Rule of the WCoC is like the First Rule of Fight Club, never to talk about it.

What I have been permitted to say as a warning to others is, in the US even minor transgressions of the Rules are punishable by years of banishment to Tennessee. In Canada they're even more strict, it's to a place called Regina.  

Meldrew wrote:

It seems that the ones that complain about the forks on the Silver Wing are first time maxi scooter owners......But they don't, they join this forum and I read posts like 'I've just bought this 20** Silver Wing and I love it, but'... the front forks seem very weak, how do you get the Silverwing onto it's main stand? I'm pressing the front brake lever and it still won't start, the rear shocks are too soft. What's the correct tyre pressures, I didn't close the seat properly and overnight that little light has flattened the battery, etc, etc.

You seem to paint all with a pretty broad brush. If you don't like reading those posts, skip over them. In my case, the previous owner weighed well over 400lbs and his wife was a very huge woman. The shocks and forks are terrible. I need to replace them and if there's something better out there than stock, why not ask here? Should someone looking to learn about their their Silverwing go to a Harley site? Apparently if they ask here, all they get is some smart azz thinking he's cute or funny making snide remarks. What's the purpose of a site like this, if not to share information and help others? Thankfully, some others understand this, i.e. The Bern, who has posted very helpful information.

If the previous owner has destroyed the springs by grossly exceeding the weight-limit - 375 lbs according to the Honda website - why not replace them with OEM parts? It's hardly the fault of the springs that they have failed.
I can vouch for the fact that Honda springs are more than up to the task.
In fact, their efficency and robustness is demonstrated by the fact they managed to haul around such mountains of flesh far beyond expectations.
That the previous owner exceeded the limit by so much - one might surmise double - would prompt me to give the whole bike, chassis and all, a very close inspection for signs of fatigue.

'kin'ell Minimac, if the poor things been lugging round that kinda weight I'd be checking the entire subframe.
Folks that size need a structural engineer!!!
Hopefully your bike has escaped unscathed and is now relieved just to be carrying one person not the entire tribe.

Thanks everyone for all your help.
I decided to go this way.

I just ordered Racetech fork springs to replace the dangerously soft ones in my 2002 600 Silverwing. It only has about 700 miles on it but springs are shot. Completely collapses when you grab thr front break at 5 mph, and makes a bang when it bottoms out. I went with these models.

RACE TECH FRSP S3234095 .95 KG/MM FORK SPRING SET RACE TECH. I weigh 206 lbs and want to ride loaded up alone and with my girlfriend.

You could check there site for a spring rate suggestion.

Was interested in installing the Racetech gold valve emulators but the shop didn't want to drill out the oem damper rods. Which I "think you need to do?" Racetech said You get rid of the lower spring but I cant figure out how the damper rod will not be banging on the lower fork? Anyone familiar with it?

Cheers

The emulator replaces the compression damping normally generated by the lower holes on the rod, so Race Tech recommend drilling these out so they don't affect damping any more. There's two springs, a large one on the outside of the rod that controls max extension of the fork, you definitely need that. There's also a weedy little spring right on the end of the rod in the plastic cup, I've no idea why it's there.

Thanks, do you think I should have the shop leave it out like Racetech says?
Thanks for your help.
Allen

I would definitely follow Race Tech's instructions.

Good advice, did you leave it out too?

This is a photo of the parts

Thanks

I haven't put emulators in yet but have ordered springs. My forks are currently stock but I made 8mm longer spacers and raised the oil level to 80mm to reduce bottoming.

Interesting, let me know how it comes along.

Let us all know how it pans out.
We'll expect your next post from either the finish line at Pikes Peak or a hospital bed

Lots of info on Emulator installation here:

https://racetech.com/download/InstructPDF/IP%20FEGV%20S%20Emulator-STREET.pdf

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rdk86l3uempuk3t/Damper%20rods.pdf?dl=0

Thanks

Let me know how your Emulators go. I'm going to try just new springs first, but the emulators are definitely on my radar.

I'm just going with the springs too.

Whew I am going to the wood shed for this one but, I am new to the Honda Silverwing scooter I have less than 3,000 miles on mine I bought a used 08 with almost 8,000 miles on it and have ridden it thru 5 states in 6 months. The scooter I had previous to this was a 2015 T max.

Please trust me on this the handling between the two is like night and day. the T max was like a corvette compared to the 75 Oldsmobile silverwing. The dampening is horrible the rebound is noticeable and the low speed coast sets up a head shake like no other.

It has new balanced tires on it. when taking a slow sharp corner it gives a wiggle that is not confidence inspiring. it rides fine at highway speed but that is the only speed it seems comfortable with and it you were to hit a rough spot on a corner at speed it really doesn't play well..butt pucker.

Currently it is with a Honda dealer because of a squeal at take off that has not gotten better but much worse. while it's there they will check the suspension hopefully.

Jeepers Joseph...apparently this forum is meant to be kind of like Fight Club, where you cannot talk about any shortcomings from a 2001 design...Apparently the Silver Wing has been ordained as perfect and unable to be improved, by order of Soichiro himself.

The T-max has a cartridge fork damper (like most modern bikes) so no surprise that it works better than the Swing. Having said that, properly maintained my Swing is not awful, just a bit crude on bumps and a bit loose the rest of the time. Can't say I've ever felt it was unsafe (and I have tested it up to a surprisingly high speed, on a closed course and with adult supervision of course) so maybe yours needs some mechanical love, fresh oil and the right quantity would be a good start, maybe the steering head bearings need attention too.

Joseph
75 Oldsmobile silverwing; You may have purchased an accident damaged bike, I suggest you sell it on and return to a tmax

Oh Lenny if we only could in the states there haven't been any sold since 2016. and those that are here are not for sale sadly.

Terry Smith wrote:

I haven't put emulators in yet but have ordered springs. My forks are currently stock but I made 8mm longer spacers and raised the oil level to 80mm to reduce bottoming.

Hi,
I wrote to Racetech with questions and this is their response to my questions.

https://racetech.com/download/InstructPDF/IP%20FRSP%20S%20Street%20Fork%20Springs.pdf

https://racetech.com/page/title/Fk%20Preload%20-%20Relaxed%20and%20Actual



Set preload at 15mm, oil level at 130mm

Begin reassembling the forks according to your manual. Remember to install the top-out spring and bottom-out cone if
you are doing complete disassembly. Consult manufacturers specs for damping rod bolt torque.

Copied from RaceTech site. Remove what? Top out spring? Their instructions say use it.

silvercat600 wrote:

Thanks, do you think I should have the shop leave it out like Racetech says?
Thanks for your help.
Allen

Begin reassembling the forks according to your manual. Remember to install the top-out spring and bottom-out cone if
you are doing complete disassembly. Consult manufacturers specs for damping rod bolt torque.

Leave what out? Top out spring? Their instructions say to use it.

Thanks

Yeah, there's no way you should leave out a top-out spring. That is what controls the extended position of the fork, without it the fork will extend until the bottom of the fork tube hits the top of the damper rod with a loud clang!The other tiny spring tha lives in the bottoming cone is a mystery to me, I still cant't work out what it might do.

These just arrived on the slow boat from the USA for me, so I know what I'll be doing tonight! Will let you know how that works out. Was slightly concerned by a sticker on the outside of the box saying ""WARNING: Spring kit was made with split rates". Close inspection shows that I have one spring at 0.9kg/mm and the other at 0.8kg/mm, to make the 0.85kg/mm that I ordered. I'm going to stick with standard 10W oil but will drop this to the recommended 130mm that RT specify.

Thanks fo the information.

What brand of fork oil are you using? There is so much viscosity differences between brands.

I guess that little spring just keeps damper rod bottomed in fork.

Stiffer spring will help but as you know fork valving won't change. Minor spring rates differences won't matter it's close. Do these springs still require the standard Honda spacer at top?

I'm using Motul 10W which looks to be pretty similar to Honda SS-8 in terms of viscosity at 40C.

The damper rod bolts solidly through the bottoming cone into the fork bottom; that's what the hex head bolt is connecting to, so the spring is trapped between the bottoming cone and the taper of the damper rod. There's nothing that it interacts with that I can see. Other forks that used the TRAC antidive had a light spring that controlled the compression damping but that's not the case in these.

The RaceTech springs will very likely require a new spacer to be cut. The black tube in my photo is a piece of PVC pipe supplied for just that pupose. RT generally recommend about 15mm of preload on their springs, so to work that out you extend the fork fully and drop the new spring in, plus the washers. Then measure fromthe top of the fork tube down to the top of the washer on the spring. Subtract from that the depth of the fork cap that projects into the leg when it is screwed on, and that is the gap between the relaxed spring and the cap. Add 15mm to that, and that is your spacer length.

And yes, I know the fork damping characteristics won't change. What I am hoping is that the stiffer spring (with much less preload) will be taking up more of the suspension energy and allowing less movement which (hopefully) also means less jolting from the compression damping. I'm still semi-resigned to buying emulators but am happy to approach this in an iterative fashion. I suspect I may find the stiffer springs really also need stiffer rebound damping (and RT recommend 15W) and if I do that, the compression damping is also affected (unless I had the emulators).

Good advice. Thanks l'll let everyone know how mine works out.

Hi Terry,

I'm waiting on my new Honda rebound damper springs part number  51411MBA003 and it is back ordered until Oct. 22, 2020. Just my luck my riding season in Montreal is usually finished the beginning of Oct.  I researched 41 mm rebound fork springs and surprisingly thier is after market Harley Davidson parts for this. If it has the same measurements maybe I could use these? Would you be so kind to provide any dimensions of the spring like diameter, free lenght, etc? Maybe a strong spring will be better? I don't know actually which part in my fork is making the loud clacking noise on compression. Any ideas?
Thanks,
Allen

Terry Smith wrote:

This is a photo of the parts

With all the talk about RaceTech springs... Hyperpro springs have been the go-to front suspension upgrade for years. Is there a reason why you all are focused on RaceTech rather than Hyperpro springs?

Nevertheless, I sure like to hear about those damper rod Emulators as well, whether they’ll be an improvement and whether they’ll fit with HyperPro or OEM springs.

Keep the info flowing, please.