Shimming fork springs

I have asked this in the England forum also, but thought this may get a wider readership!

I am looking to firm up the front forks and will use a heavier weight oil when I rebuild the forks, however while putting some new springs would be a nice option, it is not cheap.

Has anyone tried increasing the preload on the Swing springs by using shims/washers on top of the spring and found it worked? I have done this in the past on bikes and found it can often be useful.

Dunno about using heavier weight fork oil, but, in the past, there were several discussions on the Yahoo Silverwing Forum about adding a 10 mm piece of PVC pipe to increase the length of the SW spring spacer and increase the pre-load that way.

Tim

I did this on a Sportster I used to own and it worked pretty well.
It wouldn't cost much other then your time.

C-Wing

Thanks Guys, I will see what i have in the washer box tomorrow morning and go from there. It cannot hurt to try 8-10mm and it'll never be easier!
!

Well its definitely worth a try and should help with a firmer ride, but ultimately will not be as good as the hyperpro springs as they are progressive as opposed to linear... where u really will notice the difference is in the handling, progressive springs will give a tauter ride and the scoot will be more stable and quicker at stopping in a hurry

Bernardo wrote:

Well its definitely worth a try and should help with a firmer ride, but ultimately will not be as good as the hyperpro springs as they are progressive as opposed to linear... where u really will notice the difference is in the handling, progressive springs will give a tauter ride and the scoot will be more stable and quicker at stopping in a hurry

Not sure what make spring is in the forks, but they are pukka progressive springs already! I think that someone may have been in the forks before, as there was a mark on the one leg on the retaining plug.

steveR wrote:

Bernardo wrote:

Well its definitely worth a try and should help with a firmer ride, but ultimately will not be as good as the hyperpro springs as they are progressive as opposed to linear... where u really will notice the difference is in the handling, progressive springs will give a tauter ride and the scoot will be more stable and quicker at stopping in a hurry

Not sure what make spring is in the forks, but they are pukka progressive springs already! I think that someone may have been in the forks before, as there was a mark on the one leg on the retaining plug.

Looks like you are onto a winner..!

Bernardo wrote:

Looks like you are onto a winner..!

It'd be nice to think so

Hi Steve,in the standard Honda set up the fork springs have a large distance piece fitted,approx 60mm in length.When the Hyperpros are fitted this distance piece is left out as the springs are much longer than the standard fitted.So if you have no distance piece in your fork set up then it looks like some previous owner has upgraded the forks.

Looking good.

Wal.

walmac wrote:

Hi Steve,in the standard Honda set up the fork springs have a large distance piece fitted,approx 60mm in length.When the Hyperpros are fitted this distance piece is left out as the springs are much longer than the standard fitted.So if you have no distance piece in your fork set up then it looks like some previous owner has upgraded the forks.

Looking good.

Wal.

Much obliged Wal, the long spacer was still in the fork. I know what you mean about the longer springs, as I have fitted Hagon springs on my bikes in the past too.

This thread got me to thinking about shimming the forks so I did.

The original spacer is about 2 3/8 of an inch. I made spacers out of 3/4 inch schedule 40 PVC pipe. I made them 3 3/8 inchs long.

The first thing I notice is that the front doesn't sag near as much. Almost half my travel was taken up by just standing the Wing up. Now I loose about an inch which is almost perfect for sag.

Now the front is stiffer but not harsh. I will have to give is some time to get used to it and to give a better report. Total cost was .53 cents for the pipe and a couple hours of my time.

C-Wing.

What weight oil did you use?????

pancho wrote:

What weight oil did you use?????

I didn't change the fork oil, although i probably should have. I pulled the stock spacers and installed my longer spacers then bolted it all back together.

In the small amout of in-town riding I have done, I am happy with the results.

C-Wing

C-Wing wrote:

pancho wrote:

What weight oil did you use?????

I didn't change the fork oil, although i probably should have. I pulled the stock spacers and installed my longer spacers then bolted it all back together.

In the small amout of in-town riding I have done, I am happy with the results.

C-Wing

Thank You,guess what I will do soon.......

C-Wing wrote:

pancho wrote:

What weight oil did you use?????

I didn't change the fork oil, although i probably should have. I pulled the stock spacers and installed my longer spacers then bolted it all back together.

In the small amout of in-town riding I have done, I am happy with the results.

C-Wing

It rides great........Thank you.........

Mine seems to ride better, it doesn't bottom out and it corners much better. I am having to retrain myself to ride with the springs shimmed.

I would recommend this as an inexpensive upgrade.

C-Wing

This was a enteresting thread. Alot of great information. Thank's to all that contributed to it.

C-Wing wrote:

The original spacer is about 2 3/8 of an inch.  I made spacers out of 3/4 inch schedule 40 PVC pipe.  I made them 3 3/8 inchs long.
 

Can I do this mod WITHOUT removing the fork tubes (just remove the caps)? I have read that some only use 1/2inch shim (say 3") - am I better using something less than a full inch increase? I would go with schedule 80 PVC. Can I use a 'dip stick' to see if I have enough fork oil in the tube - and if not I can add a bit more? I have my plastic off - but don't want to tackle a bigger job until next winter. Thanks.

Dimond wrote:

Can I do this mod WITHOUT removing the fork tubes (just remove the caps)?

No, when you remove those caps (if you can) the spring is going BOING...

You will have a hell of job trying to get the caps back on even if you removed the front fairing, not to mention the extra spacer.  Much easier to  have the fork tube in your hand (or vice) you only have to remove the front wheel, brake caliper and mud guard...

Also, consider replacing the fork oil with 20W which is what comes in the Hyperpro spring kit.

Yes, you can use a dip stick to measure the oil level but the spring must be removed to do so...

When I used spacers on my LC250 (quite a while back) without using heavier oil the front felt like a pogo stick

Thanks guys - you have answered my questions - I will do this project at a future date when I have time to remove the forks.

My front forks where very soft which made the handling very poor i  increased the fork tube spacer by 25mm which firmed up the end and it made a world of difference to the handling,I also put new 15w oil in while I had the forks dismantled. By the way the spacer I used was a length of stainless steel tube cut from a piece from a Henry or similar vacuum cleaner pipe, this fit inside the original spacer, i am very pleased with the results and a very cheap way to firm up the front end.

I to noticed that my 06 S/W had progressive front springs from the factory.See page 14-12 of the shop manual.They may not be quite as long as some of the replacement springs. Also changing the oil to a 15W did help. I think that installing a spacer with out removing the fork would next to impossible.
Installing the cap with the extra tension and not striping the threads would be the problem.

Problem with progressive springs it is very hard to get the dampening right with the very crude suspension in the Silverwing (and most bikes). It is always going to be a compromise on this bike. Most manufacturers put cheap suspension components on the bike.

Even on my $25k+ BMW motorcycle they put relatively cheap shocks even though the dampening was electronically adjustable. I spent about $1,500 upgrading the shocks on it and it transformed the bike.

Is the oil used in the forks a special blend or will motor oil work?

You need to use fork oil. It is specially formulated for use in forks. Also the viscosity rating in motor oils isn't exact, it is even more of a range even though they might say it is straight 30w when using the SAE rating system. Spend the extra money and go with the fork oil.

Day Trippin,
Thank you for the information. I will go and get the fork oil from my Honda dealer. Thanks again. 

You might consider a heavier weight oil than what Honda recommends. I used 15w with a slight improvement in handling.

You need to factor in your weight and riding style. If you are heavier or more aggressive you might want to consider 20w oil.

I weigh 150lbs and do not ride aggressively.  The service manual calls for SS-8 which is 10w.  What is the item number for the 15w?  I also plan to lengthen the fork spacer by one inch.

There are various aftermarket fork oils in most any weight available; don't feel that you have to use Honda oil.

After you've changed your oil, it would be helpful to the forum if you posted your impressions of your modification.

An easy cheapo way to shim fork springs is remove the fork caps, place 3, 4, or more suitably sized coins on top of the springs, and replace the fork caps. It's a good use for all the coins you tend to bring back from foreign holidays.

Dunno if this helps,taken from Italian Swing forum archive .......... http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.silverwing400.it/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26task%3Dview%26id%3D94%26Itemid%3D83&usg=ALkJrhjHG7XW5uPviuBblLG6GQfzjg8fQA

buddy19520 wrote:

There are various aftermarket fork oils in most any weight available; don't feel that you have to use Honda oil.

After you've changed your oil, it would be helpful to the forum if you posted your impressions of your modification.

I plan to do the mods to my forks as I reconstruct my front end. Had a little oops.  Also doing physical therapy to get back into shape to ride. I will try to remember to update this post.

Update,
I just rebuilt my forks, and it was difficult.  I still do not have complete use of my hands. Going in for nerve testing tomorrow. The forks were simple to disassemble. I had problems with removing the bottom allen bolt. Reassembling was a problem, after torquing the allen bolt, the inner tube would not extend at all.  Ended up disassembling the fork to learn that a plastic piece on the bottom of the inner tube got stuck and would not allow the fork piston to extend through the inner tube.  Made a note in my service manual to mount the fork and using a socket in the axle mount to tap the outer fork down.  The first fork took me about 5 hours. The second fork took me about 1 hours to rebuild, and another hour to get the top cap on. I also installed a longer fork spacer, about 3.5",  which made it very difficult to screw the top cap back, especially with my bad hands. I also went with 15w fork oil.  I will update the riding characteristics after my doctor releases me to ride again.

longer fork spacer, about 3.5" wrote:

Really!! That sounds massive, how much longer is that over the standard spacer?


@The Bern: Could you edit your post and use tinyurl.com to shorten that url, as its made the screen width too wide? ta

RArch wrote:

@The Bern: Could you edit your post and use tinyurl.com to shorten that url, as its made the screen width too wide? ta

Sorry about that   I would edit it but do not seem to have that option  I worked out the tinyurl thing & made a link if someone would be so kind as to edit my post & delete this  that would be good

link .. http://tinyurl.com/q6mlbzg .. thanks in advance


EDIT:Must be a time related thing as there is an edit button on this post,so looks like a job for mod/admin

This is kind of funny. The reason The Bern can not edit his post is people complained that
they wanted a time limit on editing and the mod/admin put a limit on how long you could
edit to make us happy. As in anything else in life nothing is free. Everything has a cost
and this is the cost of limiting editing time. Not saying its a bad thing just just saying.

RArch wrote:

Really!! That sounds massive, how much longer is that over the standard spacer?


@The Bern: Could you edit your post and use tinyurl.com to shorten that url, as its made the screen width too wide? ta

The stock spacer is 2.5 inches.  I increased it by an inch.  You have to be careful not to strip the treads on the top cap while pushing down on the cap and socket.

Hi,

Do you have any pics of the front shocks mod?

Thanks,

Ofer Rothmann

Just put in my Hyperpro springs - WOW! If you want to transform your SWing handling - do this mod. It makes your springs SOFTER (not harder as you would get with a SPACER) than STOCK and MUCH SOFTER than using a SPACER. Hypersprings are not a INCREMENTAL improvement - they are a MONUMENTAL improvement (akin to Givi Air Flow, Dr Pulley Sliders, etc.). I used HD Screaming Eagle Heavy Duty Fork Oil - seemed less viscous than the oil that came with my Hyperpro springs. I have nearly 40,000 miles on SWings - and WOW is the best way I can describe this mod - only downer is this mod is that I am sorry I did not do it 40,000 miles ago! If you are a serious SWing user/rider then please do this mod - if not, still a nice upgrade if your budget permits ($180 springs and $50 or so in parts).

Ofer Rothmann wrote:

Hi,

Do you have any pics of the front shocks mod?

Thanks,

Ofer Rothmann

Sorry. That was my first attempt in rebuilding my forks. My hands were constantly covered in fork oil and did not want my camera to get oily. There are many posts on rebuilding the fork seals.  Just use the search feature here in this forum.  search for "fork".  Look for this post "Fork seal replacement Part 1 and 2   Thu Jan 20, 2011 1:17 am"

The spacer was made from sch40 PVC pipe.

WingMan02 wrote:

Update,
I also installed a longer fork spacer, about 3.5",  which made it very difficult to screw the top cap back.....

The OEM spacer is carbon steel welded tube, 2.38" long x 1.34" OD x 0.04" wall (nominal dimensions).

So, 3.5" is about 1.1" LONGER than the OEM spacer. For a MUCH better ride, I am suggesting that you pay $170 for the Hyperpro springs modification as they will bring even more smiles to your face! With the Hypersprings you DO NOT use any spacer (just leave the OEM spacer out). The Hyperpro springs are LONGER than the OEM springs. It is MUCH easier to get the Fork Cap back on with the Hypersprings as their initial compressive force at zero sag is much less - plus when you take the Fork Cap off in the future it is a simple matter to keep Hyperspring, retaining ring, and fork cap from flying all over the place.

WingMan02 wrote:

Update,
I just rebuilt my forks, and it was difficult.  I still do not have complete use of my hands. Going in for nerve testing tomorrow. The forks were simple to disassemble. I had problems with removing the bottom allen bolt. Reassembling was a problem, after torquing the allen bolt, the inner tube would not extend at all.  Ended up disassembling the fork to learn that a plastic piece on the bottom of the inner tube got stuck and would not allow the fork piston to extend through the inner tube.  Made a note in my service manual to mount the fork and using a socket in the axle mount to tap the outer fork down.  The first fork took me about 5 hours. The second fork took me about 1 hours to rebuild, and another hour to get the top cap on. I also installed a longer fork spacer, about 3.5",  which made it very difficult to screw the top cap back, especially with my bad hands. I also went with 15w fork oil.  I will update the riding characteristics after my doctor releases me to ride again.

Bike completely re-assembled with new tupperware. Started riding the Swing from this past Saturday.  The Swing seems to bounce harder due to the longer fork spacer. The 14" front tires do not help it either. It does not nose dive much when doing a rapid stop applying the front brakes. Seems to handle the turns better.  It could also be that I have not ridden for about 8 months following my accident and cannot remember how soft the front end was.  so far, my feeling is the mod was worth it.

Hi guys!
If you use the Hypersprings can you do the change without removing the tubes from the bike?

Dimond wrote:

WingMan02 wrote:

Update,
I also installed a longer fork spacer, about 3.5",  which made it very difficult to screw the top cap back.....

The OEM spacer is carbon steel welded tube, 2.38" long x 1.34" OD x 0.04" wall (nominal dimensions).  

So, 3.5" is about 1.1" LONGER than the OEM spacer. For a MUCH better ride, I am suggesting that you pay $170 for the Hyperpro springs modification as they will bring even more smiles to your face!  With the Hypersprings you DO NOT use any spacer (just leave the OEM spacer out).  The Hyperpro springs are LONGER than the OEM springs.  It is MUCH easier to get the Fork Cap back on with the Hypersprings as their initial compressive force at zero sag is much less - plus when you take the Fork Cap off in the future it is a simple matter to keep Hyperspring, retaining ring, and fork cap from flying all over the place.  

Short answer is, "No". But you probably could do the job if you removed the entire front cowling.

If you are going to attempt the task either way, be sure to break loose the 4 pinch bolts while the scoot is still on the ground with the tires on. IIRC You'll need a long 13MM box wrench for leverage on those bolts.

Tim

Yaj wrote:

Hi guys!
If you use the Hypersprings can you do the change without removing the tubes from the bike?

Not sure that I can answer this one.   You definitely need to remove the front cover - but not if you remove just the forks.  Tim is totally correct in saying that you need to loosen the 4 pinch bolts while the wheel is on the ground as they are mighty tight.  I went with the LONG 13mm box end wrench to loosen them - but I found out on reassembly that my 13mm socket on my torque wrench worked just fine (did not need the 13mm LONG box wrench).  

If you want a 'better' front end - go with Hypersprings - not spacer - here is why.  Adding a longer spacer means you have 3.5 inches LESS spring in the tube as compared to the Hyperspring.  The Hyperspring is a MONUMENTAL HANDLING/COMFORT improvement over the OEM Honda spring - it is worth the investment if you have any qualms about the front end handling/comfort of your SWing - which you do if you are planning on adding a spacer.  

If you pull your forks you can inspect and address fork nicks, replace oil, replace dust seal, replace oil seal - all of which I recommend.  I would NOT recommend removing the screw in the bottom of your fork as there is likely minimal wear inside on your sliders AND it is really hard (for me anyway) to get the entire assembly removed and reassembled (I had a devil of a time getting the screw retightend).  

Don't forget to install some gaitors - keeps fork wear to a minimum - prevents future costly and time consuming repairs.

I did not take apart my forks just to add the longer spacer. I had an accident that broke off a tab on the fork that secures the front fender. Since I had to totally breakdown one side of the my forks, I decided to also rebuild both with new parts.  I was NOT going to add the longer spaced until I read about it from another post and decided to try it. It is harder to secure the top fork cap due to the longer spacer. I spent most of my available funds on the new plastic body pieces and could not afford the Hyper Springs.  Maybe someday I will go for the Hyper Springs.