weird belt rub noise

After talking to folks here, I installed some 26g Dr. Pulley sliders and I love now being able to pull ahead of traffic at stoplights.  But for some reason - and I think it started before I installed the sliders - the belt is rubbing on the side of the belt housing sometimes.  I can hear it - it has a distinctive sound.  

It is a new belt - about a year old now (5,000 miles?).  The one caveat is that I initially put it on backward!!  After a few days I realized I forgot to check the direction of the arrows and when I opened it up, I sure had put it on backward.  Does this stretch a belt so that it will rub?

I guess maybe I also got a bad belt.  Is there some recommended belt other than the OEM belt?  I want to put on 24g sliders.  I don't do much freeway driving, maybe twice a month for 20 - 40 miles.  The rest of the time I'm trying to stay ahead of traffic at stoplights.  Before putting in the 26g sliders, if I opened the throttle too fast, the friction clutch seemed to "skate" rather than hook up right away.

Anyway, my main problem is the belt rub.  Here's a pic of the inside of the case...

https://i.servimg.com/u/f57/18/74/81/26/100_1712.jpg

(maybe this worked...)

No picture.

What you are showing is typical belt contact in the case.Some times a little more some time a little less.Probably has to do with how aggressively your ridding habits are.

I have never seen a case that polished, and I've seen quite a few. I run 24 gr sliders, and have no belt slap, or polishing, at all. Would installing a belt backwards cause that? I don't know for sure. I can speculate and say that running a belt in reverse would cause it to flex in the opposite direction from what it should. My suggestion, buy a new belt (OEM only), install it correctly with either the old 26 gr or new 24 gr sliders, and try again.

Does the clutch weight set ever wear out?

(item #6 in this parts list:)
http://www.bikebandit.com/houseofmotorcycles/2007-honda-silver-wing-abs-fsc600a/o/m150991#sch418326

pattim wrote:

Does the clutch weight set ever wear out?

(item #6 in this parts list:)
http://www.bikebandit.com/houseofmotorcycles/2007-honda-silver-wing-abs-fsc600a/o/m150991#sch418326

Yes, they wear out. These are the clutch pads (which are weighted, hence the Honda name). You can measure the thickness of the pads (while you are at it, measure the bell) and validate they are thick. I'm not sure when these wear out but if you have < 30,000 miles, my guess is they aren't bad.

As for your original problem, a "turkey gobble" sound on slow takeoff is normal. I'll defer to Big Bird on the amount of rubbing, but I don't think it looks terribly different than mine, but I don't remember exactly how much rubbing there was last time I looked, so listen to him.

Installing the belt 'backwards' will allow the belt to slap. DAMHIK.

With less than 30,000 miles there is slim chance that the clutch pads are worn. If you are concerned though you could pull the Driven Pulley/Clutch assembly to check. And while you have it out you could remove the clutch weights and clean up & lube the pivot pins.

Tim

Thanks for all the replies and information.  One of the reasons I asked about the clutch pads wearing out is that at about 12 MPH during acceleration from a standing start, I can feel things (the clutch/belt) "hook up" suddenly with a little bump or burst of acceleration, after which it's fully "hooked up."  It actually is a jolt, not the normal transition to hookup. I can always feel it now, irrespective of how hard I accelerate, although the size of the 'jolt' varies.

So I was thinking 2 things: (1) glaze on the driving variator cones (they do look weirdly, darkly shiny) - this would make for more slip before hookup, and a sudden "grab" at hookup, or (2) the friction pads wearing out.  Does anyone on here ever talk about glaze on the cones?  I know such things used to happen to, say, drum brakes in the old days.  One would just use a little #600 wet/dry to remove the glaze.  And, of course, glaze on the friction pads is also possible.

Just wondering first if anyone has felt (and trouble-shot) this sort of bump during acceleration.  It started happening on my Yamaha Riva when it was about 18 years old and got quickly worse and worse until the bike was unrideable - so I'm really worried about my honda.

TIA

EDIT:  I forgot to mention that I replaced the belt and sliders about a year ago, and this "bump" started happening only a few weeks ago.  There is no noise associated with the acceleration pulse/bump, except the normal slow-down of the RPMs as it happens (as the drive train hooks-up).

If by "cones" you are referring to the belt face of the variator sheaves, then, no, that problem doesn't seem to have come up here on the forum. But that it's suddenly grabbing does seem to suggest that something is slipping. If you have been running the belt "backwards" for a year perhaps that has contributed increased belt wear and slipping.

Again, you might want to check those clutch pads. The trailing edge of those pads is raised above the shoes (clutch weights) by a couple of MMs. The leading edge will show more wear. But if the lead edge is flush with the shoe (1MM or less) then the clutch pads/weights/shoes are shot. If all seems well then sand the glaze off the pads as well as the clutch bell. Or go a bit further and take the circlips and retaining plate off, pop off the clutch springs,remove the shoes and clean & lube the pivot pins.

Tim

The 'bump' of acceleration you feel when starting out, especially with a lot of throttle is deliberately designed into the ECU. Honda wanted to restrict full power until the bike was moving over 8mph. It is very noticeable when you want to fire off the line to beat someone across an intersection, the exhaust note sounds quite different, muffled a bit and then suddenly louder as the ECU allows full ignition advance to occur.

exavid wrote:

The 'bump' of acceleration you feel when starting out, especially with a lot of throttle is deliberately designed into the ECU. Honda wanted to restrict full power until the bike was moving over 8mph. It is very noticeable when you want to fire off the line to beat someone across an intersection, the exhaust note sounds quite different, muffled a bit and then suddenly louder as the ECU allows full ignition advance to occur.

Interesting. I hadn't read that in the service manual. I assume this was figured out by using a dynamometer in conjunction with software?

No, I read it on a website a couple of years ago. Prior to reading that I wondered why my bike changed exhaust sound and felt like it got a few more hp after starting out from a stop with full throttle. When I got my second SW it did the same thing so I tend to believe the article. I didn't bookmark it and haven't been able to find it again so far.

I have never experienced it because I have never used full throttle from a dead stop. I usually feather the throttle until the clutch locks up. Makes sense though, as the clutch life will be shortened with full throttle abuse from a dead stop.

Sometimes you just gotta put down the car or bike in the next lane. I always love beating a HD off the line with a scooter. Even more fun with the BMW. Sure it increases wear and burns more gas. I can afford to buy the gas and do the repairs early to enhance my day.

exavid wrote:

Sometimes you just gotta put down the car or bike in the next lane. I always love beating a HD off the line with a scooter. Even more fun with the BMW. Sure it increases wear and burns more gas. I can afford to buy the gas and do the repairs early to enhance my day.

I try not to drive like that. From my observations, it tends to one day come back and bite you, either in the form of a collision, speeding ticket, or confrontation. There's too many hotheads and distracted drivers out there. When it's a 2 wheel vs 4 wheel confrontation, we 2 wheelers will lose every time. I don't need that kind of stuff anymore.

Different strokes... I'll probably slow down when I get old.

When...or if?

If you don't make a target of yourself, you're less likely to be shot at!

exavid wrote:

Different strokes... I'll probably slow down when I get old.

You are old and you're just kidding yourself if you think otherwise, you're an old man to me and I'm in my early 60’s. It's no big deal beating someone away from the lights you see teenage kids on shagged out scooters doing it all the time here in York.  

I guess I'm just not as old in spirit as some here.

exavid wrote:

The 'bump' of acceleration you feel when starting out, especially with a lot of throttle is deliberately designed into the ECU. Honda wanted to restrict full power until the bike was moving over 8mph. It is very noticeable when you want to fire off the line to beat someone across an intersection, the exhaust note sounds quite different, muffled a bit and then suddenly louder as the ECU allows full ignition advance to occur.

...I have never felt this before on this bike - had it since 07 - until the last few weeks.  I'm not talking about the normal smooth hook-up.  I'm talking about the feeling of something suddenly engaging and the frame jerking forward and the engine suddenly slowing down.

What I was referring to wasn't the clutch suddenly grabbing or the belt moving up the variator either. With both the '04 and '07 SWs I had there was a very different sound in the exhaust as the bike accelerated past 6-8mph when accelerating hard from a standstill. It sounded like the muffler opened up, it didn't actually, but there was a rather noticeable change in the sound quality of the exhaust as the bike passed that speed range. It only occurred, as best I could tell, when the throttle was wide open. There was no jerk but the scooter did increase it's acceleration rate once the exhaust sound deepened and got louder at the 8mph point.
I never heard or felt a similar phenomenon with the Burgman 650 I had or the BMW 650GT I have now. But the effect was definitely present on both Silverwings.

OK, I just changed the drive belt, it was WAAAAY loose.  I guess having the Dr. Pulley sliders really wears it out quickly (unless it was because I installed that belt backwards first...).  This one I was careful to install in the correct CCW direction.   We will see how it goes...

Does anyone know if there is a substitute design for the Honda "Universal" holder that works for the rear pulley?  I did the front pulley with a scrap of plywood (with a hole in it) and two lag bolts which a coworker put together.  I *think* the rear pulley is a little more tricky to hold... 

It looked a lot like this...
http://www.leroybeal.net/motorcycles/silverwing/articles/drivepulleytool/03.jpg

No need for a holder for the driven pulley. Just lock up the rear brake and use a 22mm socket on the nut.

Tim

Ah, good idea - I didn't think of that - wait a minute - I thought there was a friction clutch between the rear pulley and the wheel!  No?   

Oh, wait a minute, I guess the nut is on a shaft locked to the wheel, and the pulley "floats" on that...  

And *disappointment* new belt and sliders and I still hear a rapidly deepening howl (that sounds to me like belt slip) then *thunk* - the drive grabs and no further slip or sound.  This is not right.  aggh

Big fear: that this means the friction clutch is bad...

What do you mean loose? Did the belt stretch or was the front pulley loose? Could also be a bearing.

I suspect your front pulley is not properly installed. Are you absolutely sure that you didn't tighten the front pulley against the belt?

pattim wrote:

And *disappointment* new belt and sliders and I still hear a rapidly deepening howl (that sounds to me like belt slip) then *thunk* - the drive grabs and no further slip or sound.  This is not right.  aggh

Have you had a look at this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq4Y2rEJdSw

jmaslak wrote:

What do you mean loose?  Did the belt stretch or was the front pulley loose?  Could also be a bearing.

Belt stretched - pully not loose (still torqued).  A gentle push on the bottom half of the belt would bring it in contact with the belt housing.  I don't think the drive shaft felt loose, but I guess it could be.

jmaslak wrote:

I suspect your front pulley is not properly installed.  Are you absolutely sure that you didn't tighten the front pulley against the belt?

Yes, I am sure...    I would tighten then rotate a bit (to let the belt ride up on the front pulley), tighten then rotate, etc., and could see the belt ride up into position on the front pulley.  After the outer half of the pulley seated against the spacer journal, I applied 76 ft-lbs torque.  Then ran it to see proper operation variable-pulley operation.

It's just the engagement which is weird.  After it hooks up, it's normal.

bigbird wrote:

pattim wrote:

And *disappointment* new belt and sliders and I still hear a rapidly deepening howl (that sounds to me like belt slip) then *thunk* - the drive grabs and no further slip or sound.  This is not right.  aggh

Have you had a look at this?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dq4Y2rEJdSw

Yes, that is exactly the video I was following! I even looked closely this time to see if his pulley faces looked "glazed" like mine did. I was going to get some wet-and-dry and break the glaze - maybe tomorrow...   

pattim wrote:

Yes, that is exactly the video I was following!  I even looked closely this time to see if his pulley faces looked "glazed" like mine did.  I was going to get some wet-and-dry and break the glaze - maybe tomorrow...    

I made that video on Roger's Silverwing when I was in Florida in Jan. 2012. His inner and outer front drive faces were not glazed. If your drive faces are glazed, use brake cleaner like I did. If brake cleaner doesn't help, I would just start fresh with a new belt properly installed and new front drive faces. Sanding might help remove glaze, but it will likely also remove metal from the faces resulting in improper operation.

Thanks very much for that video - *very* useful!  OK, I'll try driving for a few days (until next weekend) and give that a try.  Did try brake cleaner - if it *was* removing glaze, it was very slow at doing so...

Do you know the symptoms of a worn out friction clutch?  Is that a common thing for SWINGS which have Dr. Pulley sliders?  I would think if it were, then I would have seen lots of posts here about it...  I installed a fresh set of sliders - 24g like you - previously I had 26g but the green light acceleration was not quite enough...

pattim wrote:

Do you know the symptoms of a worn out friction clutch?  Is that a common thing for SWINGS which have Dr. Pulley sliders?  

A slipping clutch will manifest itself under the highest load conditions. Once the clutch has locked up, give the engine full throttle acceleration. With 24 gr sliders, the rpm should not climb much higher than 5k. The rpm should hold steady as the bike accelerates. If the rpm briefly spikes higher than 5.5k, that would indicate clutch slippage.
Dr. Pulley sliders should not cause abnormal clutch wear. Trying to deglaze a clutch using the lock brakes/full throttle technique will increase clutch wear, as will high accelerations from a standing start. High gross vehicle weight ratings (heavy rider, passenger, luggage) and hard acceleration also can affect clutch lockup and thus wear.

And thank you very much for that explanation, also.    It really sets my mind at ease - no slippage at all after first hook-up, so that means it's all the belt. I was really worried about possible friction clutch problems.

I drove it about 40 miles today and it seems to be doing better - I'm guessing the belt is wearing in. I'm not sure I like the 24g sliders - it doesn't really begin to hook up until over 3500 RPM. I may go back to the 26g sliders.

Thanks Again,
Patti

pattim wrote:

 I'm not sure I like the 24g sliders - it doesn't really begin to hook up until over 3500 RPM.

Which isn't a bad thing. The Silverwing's engine produces peak torque at 5 000 rpm. That's the engine's sweet spot. The original rollers cause the engine to lug badly under load, as the variator hooks up way too early for the engine's torque curve. Honda did that in the interest of fuel economy. The 582 cc DOHC parallel twin cylinder engine does NOT like to be lugged. That's why vibration is so bad with the stock rollers under large throttle openings from low rpm. The 24 gr sliders allow the engine's revs to come up much closer to the torque peak, affording strong smooth acceleration without the lugging and vibration.

I *think* I finally get it. Thank you everyone for sharing your knowledge... In a reasonably-normally oprating drive train, the belt is always engaged. So that means the (frictional) hook-up is mostly in the friction clutch (except that the belt can store some elastic energy, so if the friction clutch judders during acceleration, the belt makes it worse).

I remember my brother working on drum brakes, which are sort of like the friction clutch. If they get glazed, then they are slow to hook-up, but hook up fully all-at-once, resulting in skidding tires. The fix for drum brakes was abrading the drum and shoes. Is anything like that advised for the SilverWing friction clutch? Does it ever glaze? That would explain the jump I now feel when it transitions from sliding to full hooking-up... the sudden transition from an abnormally low coefficient of sliding friction to an abnormally high coefficient of static friction which, as I recall, is supposed to be the origin of this problem with drum brakes...

EDIT:  After searching around here, it looks like I can just pull of the outer face of the drive pulley, remove the belt, lock the parking brake, and take the driven pulley + clutch pads out.  I'm guessing those will be the problem, so I went ahead and bought some.  We will see!  I just hope the clutch outer isn't destroyed, but I'm guessing not, since I don't hear metal-on-metal...  

As long as I don't remove the spring or any of it's parts, I shouldn't have to worry about seals/grease on the driven pulley, right (?), except I saw on here some reference to something I would need to grease but I can't figure out what from either the posts or the shop manual.

You can certainly keep the belt on while you loosen the Driven Pulley nut. It's only torqued to about 45ft/lbs IIRC. But you'll probably need to remove the Drive Pulley face to get the belt off. Yes, the Driven Pulley/Clutch comes off as one assembly. I doubt that your clutch pads will be worn. They tend to last many thousand of miles.

Regarding the Clutch springs; while I doubt that they are out of spec, and who know what those specs might be, Honda won't talk about the specs. Never the less if you're anxious about them you might want to consider going to Malossi clutch springs. Not that there is anything wrong with Honda Clutch springs, but Malossi's will tweak the clutch shoe engagement more in line with the power curve, and hold a little tighter too.

Malossi springs come as a set of 15 IIRC. Five each of White, Red and Yellow. The Red and Yellow springs are used to engage the clutch at higher RPMs and/or for racing purposes. The White springs are more for street use, but are stronger than OEM Clutch springs. HTH

Tim

The Malossi springs sound OK - can't seem to find them...

pattim, I believe JeffR posted www.scooterpartsco.com and they had Malossi springs. Look under Honda scooter parts.  HTH

Hmmm...maybe I'm doing something wrong, but I can't locate any specific parts on that site. I can get to their basic menu for various manufacturers, Aprilia, Vespa, Malossi, etc. but the search stops there.

Tim

Found them!! Thanks!! :-)

Tim, are you looking under the categories section? I clicked on Honda scooter parts and it showed the various models. There are other listings for other manufacturers.  I don't have any idea how the prices compare..

When you search something you have to scroll all the way to bottom.It doesn't just pop up in plain view.

D'oh! Got it now. Thanks guys

I invested in a 22mm socket last week...    ... problem solved...    

https://i.servimg.com/u/f57/18/74/81/26/100_1912.jpg

... the outer ....

https://i.servimg.com/u/f57/18/74/81/26/100_1913.jpg

Holy crap, those shoes are smoked. Yeah, you certainly need new shoes. Depending on how deeply grooved that clutch bell is it still might be functional.

It's going to take a lot of ingenuity to get that clutch bell off to replace it without the special tool. ToolBoxJesse did figure out how to do it using a gear puller though. Check the archives here or PM him. Slightly less aggro to reinstall a new clutch bell, but a time consuming none the less.

You might want to consider ordering the seal behind the clutch bell when you order the bell --just in case. Whatever you do don't use heat. You'll melt that seal

Tim

Aggh - I thought the bell might come off easily, so I bought one.     A puller, huh?  I guess I use the friction zone way too much.  All of that in 25,000 miles.  It's probably still a functional bell... just not great. And will prolly need new shoes in 1,000 miles.

The sound it gave off was nothing like I would expect metal on metal to sound.  It just had a really abrupt transition from not-very-much-friction to full lockup.  So I put it back together... and that will either be OK, or require me to take it back apart with a new set of shoes on the standby.

I also have a 87 Honda Riva 200 which I can't find shoes for.  Does anyone know of an aftermarket source?

Thanks,
Patti

Were 2007 silver wings sourced/constructed anywhere else than Japan?  I know folks will wait for a Honda car made in Japan, instead of taking one made anywhere else, because the quality is measurably higher.  I'm now wondering about my swing.  I had the centerstand just fall off a year ago.  Now, since I changed my clutch shoes, it accelerates better than when it was new.  

So YAAAAAAYYYYYY!!   - thank you for the advice and great video.  It looks like the clutch was the problem all along.  I drive mostly stop and go, always taking off fast at stop lights (to get ahead of the cars), so I guess the shoes need to be replaced in that case in only 10,000 miles or so.   

exavid wrote:

The 'bump' of acceleration you feel when starting out, especially with a lot of throttle is deliberately designed into the ECU. Honda wanted to restrict full power until the bike was moving over 8mph. It is very noticeable when you want to fire off the line to beat someone across an intersection, the exhaust note sounds quite different, muffled a bit and then suddenly louder as the ECU allows full ignition advance to occur.

I don't suppose there is anything we can do about the ECU, is there? It would be great to be able change it's configuration or something like that. Any ideas out there?

craigory wrote:

I don't suppose there is anything we can do about the ECU, is there? It would be great to be able change it's configuration or something like that. Any ideas out there?

Can you say, Power Commander? http://store.58cycle.com/product_p/dyno%20pn%20123-411.htm