Leaning In Curves

Hi All,
Weather's been pretty decent here lately (except) for some high winds last week.  Anyway finally got out for a very nice ride a couple days ago and was really "gittin" with the program so to speak and took a short sweeping curve a bit too fast (or at least faster than "I" should have.  

I know when riding in a curve that the body is "suppose" to be in the same plane as the bike, ie, the back straight inline with the same tilt as the wheels.
But for some strange reason, this time, it felt like that tilt angle was going to scoot me right on out of the curve (badly).  So I managed my speed on the next couple of curves and tried sitting a bit more upright.  Maybe it was just me but that felt a lot more comforting on this particular day.

Question being, was I being totally inappropriate by doing that and should refrain from doing it again in the future, or is there ever anytime that's allowable???  Your responses please...

Well I never lean in the curves, But I am on a Trike.

DickO, as far as I know, you should lean with the bike while also countersteering. Your lean angle is a function of your speed and degree of countersteer. I lean into curves while giving it throttle and countersteering; all that after assessing the way out of the curve. It works for me.
I am sure you know all this ! Could it be the winter lay-off ? Tires ? wind? I tend to lean forward but not out of the plane of the tires.
Jay.

I have been riding since before "countersteering" was talked about. Me, feet and legs are important--foot press right=go right, press left=go left.

Okay... Problem Solved... I'm getting a trike...  Nah...   Still, you've got a point "cot"...  maybe it was the just the long layoff from riding because other than that there were no other mitigating circumstances.  I did read up a little on this subject and saw in one article that the more upright position was more advantageous during slow speed turns.  So I might try and concentrate on that too.

And I'm not 100% sure what John is meaning by foot presses but am sure it's all a part of the natural maneuvering of a motorcycle that one quickly learns along with the built in countersteering effort that that also comes naturally.

Thank you both for the responses.
And you too "ItBeMe"...     never a dull moment around here...
I think "triking" should be called "darksiding" too...  just sayin'.

DickO wrote:

And I'm not 100% sure what John is meaning by foot presses but am sure it's all a part of the natural maneuvering of a motorcycle that one quickly learns along with the built in countersteering effort that that also comes naturally.
.

You probably use your hands on the grips, that's why you didn't understand.

I have been riding since before counter steering talked about. Press right go right....SilverWing feet forward so you can push on floorboard---same done with normal motorcycle footpegs, weigh side you want to go---bike has the advantage that you can stand on foot pegs when necessary (not cruisers).

Am aware bike goes right before going left----outtracking I believe.

Bikes are turned by leaning, want to steer get sidecar outfit or trike----sidecars requiring much more skill to be ridden right----trikes a little dangerous in my book, except CanAm. Remember how your trike tipped over easy when you were kid?

Of course hands remain on bars.

Monkeys and bears have been taught to ride motorcycles....are they briefed on countersteering? I doubt it.

A lean is only to maintain the balance.
Leaning only will land you on the ground.
The lean is controlled by the steering mechanism, in our case, the handlebars.
A counter-steer to the right causes a moving bike to lean left becoming unbalanced.
As you lean left, you turn your handlebars to the left to stop the lean at the proper balanced angle to maintain the turn you've chosen. Too much left handlebar will straighten you back up or throw you to the right if not stopped. Not enough left turn of the bars will result in the low side.
The left lean then lets (not causes) you turn your steering to the left to make the turn balanced.
A lean makes a motorcycle turn the same as rotating tires make it turn, your actions with or against them.
IF/When the rider shifts positions, like a racer for example, allows the rider more control by changing the COG which changes the balance angle and force requirements on the steering mechanism to induce results.

then why can properly set up bike make turns/bends no handed? Happens with foot pressure and then why do trials riders stand up? No hands bike still outtracks.

When I first got a scooter I found it awkward in the curves, I realised that what was missing was the thigh and knee pressure I  was used to using on a motorcycle, it took some time to get the confidence to lean the scooter by mainly steering pressure,definitely different style needed for scooter than bike.

So, may I make one more comment... ? I don't understand all the technicalities but am aware of the basics. It almost (though) sounds like if, while in a curve, as long as the "bike" is leaned and steered properly, then the rider can be in whatever position he/she chooses as long as they aren't losing control.
Way off???

DickO wrote:

So, may I make one more comment... ?  I don't understand all the technicalities but am aware of the basics.  It almost (though) sounds like if, while in a curve, as long as the "bike" is leaned and steered properly, then the rider can be in whatever position he/she chooses as long as they aren't losing control.
Way off???

There are a number of different techniques being discussed here.  Absolutely foot/leg/body position, grip pressures etc. all influence how and how well you negotiate curves.  In a left hand turn, you can sit upright, lean your scooter hard to the left (by pushing down on the left grip which actually points your front wheel to the right) and you will turn left. Dirt (motocross) and trial bikers use this technique a lot (looks like their tossing their bikes around underneath them).

The other way is to lean with the machine ... head parallel to the ground and tucking your chin closely towards the mirror in the direction you wish to turn.  Sport track racers use this approach.  This too is countersteering or push steering as it is sometimes called.  

Below is a link to an explanation by David Hough whose books (Proficient Motorcycling) are considered must reads for riders who really wants to learn and understand the sport and the related physics.  Another good title is the The Motorcycle Safety Foundation's Guide to Motorcycling Excellence: Skills, Knowledge, and Strategies for Riding Right.  I have this book, Hough's 2 books and several others and even though I've been riding for a decade or almost five, I dust them off and read them cover to cover before each riding season.

David Hough's Explanation

Dicko chose you position, either go with the bike road rider style, lean over more than the bike racer style, or stay more upright and push the bike down motorcross style.
But think about what's happening.
If you lean with the bike think of this as the default position and best for most riding scenarious.
Leaning more than the bike keeps the bike more upright for a given speed. It allowes the bike to corner faster before anything hits the ground. Looks daft on a scooter.
Staying upright and pushing the bike down means the bike itself is leaning more for a given speed, therefore a bigger chance of something grounding out. The most likely thing to ground out is the mainstand, this might make pretty sparks or really dig in and make you crash.

How you sit on motorcycle/scooter has big influuence on how things work out. Cruiser riders tend to use what I call "A-hole" pivot---knees flaping around, not griping tank, everything pivots on base of spine.

late '78 I had argument with the late Roger Hull from Rode Rider, David Hough was at the meeting, too, MSF called meeting to see why long time and high mileage riders were still alive. Meeting at Lake of the Ozarks MO---I believe how you sit on bike has a lot to do with control, feet and legs being important----at one time G. Duke and John Surtees stuck on their bikes...all this before hanging off came around----hanging off has no business in street riding.---this meeting even Dr Charles Hartman rode to meeting----earlier when I got my MSF instructor certicate, the 2 chief instructors came, one in Buick, the other in Dodge van. I rode from CA on BMW R75/5... Course in Washington DC

My ideas are for safe street riding, starting with basics and leaving out fancy explations. By the way as full time job for over 7 years, I ran motorcycle schools in Japan----using ideas copies from Honda Motor Co. "Safe Drive" program. Different than MSF (parking lot specialists) each of my students rode 150 miles in Tokyo traffic, Freeway, country roads. Many never rode again after seeing real world-----others went on to enjoy riding.

I have lived thru over 1.5 milllion road miles, hopefully sitting properly on bike----leaving out the fancy explations of the motorcyle press in US....or MSF.

Well ... while some prefer the bliss of ignorance, others seek to learn, understand and be informed. To each their own.

Well I set side saddle on mine so it is a whole new ball game for me.

Biggest mistake many people make when entering a curve to fast is panic. They freeze up and go straight off road or go wide into loose stuff. Result is the same. We all had these moments but you have to think and not panic. Scooter or bike can lean more than most people think and make through corner.

Brake STRAIGHT before turn. Accelerate through turn.

" head and eyes " as Jerry Palladino would say play a big part in smooth riding, specially in curves. Countersteering is an intuitive part of riding on two wheels. Anybody who ever rode a bicycle at speed has mastered it without even knowing. When these two techniques are applied simultaneously curves come alive.
Slow down on approach, look through the turn, lean and push (gently) on the handlebar, left to go left, right to go right, roll on the throttle. Once thru the turn, you stop pressing, level the handlebars and the bike does its thing: it will sit right up. If you are in a series of curves, slow down, look thru and turn your head to follow the turn, push and lean in the direction, roll on the throttle.
Jay.

Thank you all for the many responses... Reckon I need to get out and ride a "lot" more.

DickO wrote:

Thank you all for the many responses...  Reckon I need to get out and ride a "lot" more.

Don't we all.........except John.

DickO,
I know exactly what you mean. I do on occasion sit upright when negotiating a tight turn. Sometimes I just do it for fun even if I could negotiate the curve by leaning into it (which I usually do). The caution is that by sitting up in the seat, you might lean your bike to much and could loose traction by dragging your main stand.

Google Ken Condon !
Jay.

Best thing is to practice all techniques so you can call on them when needed.
We've all found ourselves going into a corner a fair lick quicker than we should have!
As someone mentioned earlier your bike will corner far harder than you realise with good technique.

Yes, I've looked at the "Condon" site and several others. One site reminded me about having watched the local police motor cyclists perform the maneuver that they use for "U" turns (and other tight turns), called the "teardrop" method, ie, making a quick RH outside move to go into a full LH turn or vice versa. I found that to be quite intriguing and even tried it a couple times but never fully concentrated on it. At any rate, I'll stick with the tried-and-true methods and keep on practicing. Thanks to everyone again.