dark colors are cool - until you get hit by a car

This Honda SW-T400 has the light on during every shot, now you see how important visible colors are, on the bike and on you.

Amen brother I almost #@$% hit 2 people riding their motorized wheel chairs on a dark night ON THE ROAD, no reflective anything and NO lights of any kind. Lights on reflective and bright colors still we get hit and hit vehicles

Sepp wrote:

This Honda SW-T400 has the light on during every shot, now you see how important visible colors are, on the bike and on you.

I really don't know what you're on about. Every maxi scooter I've owned  the lights come on as soon as you turn the key, and there's no off switch.  

Neither are you talking to a bunch of kids on this forum that need nannying about road safety generally.

The lights on, hi-vis, ATGATT, headlight modulators, extra lights etc are all topics that have been covered in great detail.

It isn't cool getting hit by a car whatever you're riding, and having the lights on or not, wearing hi-vis or riding a brightly coloured scooter isn't going to prevent it happening to some unfortunate souls.

In some cases it'll be the rider at fault because he assumes he's visible when he evidently isn't.


Incidentally I rode a black Honda CN 250 from 1996 to 2004, a black Suzuki AN400 Burgman from 2005 to 2008, followed by a black Suzuki AN650 Burgman 650 Executive from 2008 to 2010, and a black Honda FJS 600 Silver Wing from 2010 to 2018.

It's not that I'm a particular fan of the colour black, more that most maxi scooters only come in very limited choice of drab colours. It's also easier to touch up minor cosmetic scratches in black than any other boring maxi scooter colour.

Simple, I made this clip after seeing the video and I noticed how little you see the scooter light in certain angles. I did not know that since I do not make a video of me riding from a 3rd person view.

I thought it might be interesting to see how little you can see from a bike and it´s rider if you have a bad contrast situation even during bright daylight, where your low beam is quite ineffective to make you stand out.

Thanks, Sepp. You make a good point with this video. I don't know how many times I have almost killed a walker or runner in the dark in all dark clothing while driving my car. If I had been maybe four inches closer to those human beings, they would have been roadkill for sure. I really didn't see them until I was right on top of them. My SWing is black, and there are many attractive dark colors out there. I have a very nice black leather jacket that I sometimes wear while riding to church on a peaceful Sunday morning, but most of the time I'm in my high viz windbreaker over an armored jacket and under a high viz helmet. If I were a better electrician, I would also have LED lights surrounding my SWing.

This brings up the elephant in the room question: Knowing what we know about visibility issues with all vehicles, WHY, WHY, WHY do NOT ALL cars come equipped with full-time running lights? If running lights have been required on motorbikes for so many years, why do only a few car manufacturers include running lights? Even bicycles are being required to have lights in more and more communities.

Tomorrow morning or evening between light and dark, count the number of grey, black, or dark colored cars with no lights on. Give your wife a shopping dollar for every one that you count. Do the same on a foggy day. Happy wife, happy life.

Admittedly, one of the coolest looks out there is a flat black motorbike with a rider dressed in all black tooling down the highway. And that rider will probably be safe riding that look for the next 500,000+ miles. I just haven't had that kind of luck.

This brings up the elephant in the room question: Knowing what we know about visibility issues with all vehicles, WHY, WHY, WHY do NOT ALL cars come equipped with full-time running lights? If running lights have been required on motorbikes for so many years, why do only a few car manufacturers include running lights? Even bicycles are being required to have lights in more and more communities.


The idea of DRL were to set us apart from the rest, for safety reasons, now they are all required and everyone looks the same It's older cars trucks that may not have them, the law here if it's raining and wipers are on headlights are to be on all vehicles, not many do not unfortunately.

I actually agree with Meldrew. As a life time biker I don't think I've ever relied on anyone "Seeing me" to protect my backside.

Because, frankly, the two recent accidents I've had, since my last one in 1980... The first I was on a BRIGHT RED Honda VFR that has LED lights on it, full day light, and I still got T boned by some blind BMW driving wazzock. The 2nd time it wouldn't have mattered if I'd been lit like Blackpool Illuminations the bike would still have thrown me off... It's actually painted in a colour called "Hulk Green" I don't think it makes me safer because of that.

Nope. I assume I'm invisible to others, they have not seen me, don't know I'm there. And it's kept me rubber side down for many years, over 6 Honda VFR's from an FG to my latest FE, I've done more miles in all weathers in the UK, even through a few blizzards and the occasional flying tree branch... In fact I daren't even estimate how many miles I have covered since I started using a bike as my main mode of transport from the age of 16 in 1971.
Anyone who abrogates the responsibility of keeping themselves safe by relying on others to see them and "take care" of them is living in cloud cuckoo land. IMHO

Anyone who abrogates the responsibility of keeping themselves safe by relying on others to see them and "take care" of them is living in cloud cuckoo land. IMHO[/quote]

I don't expect them to take care( of me ) but I sure wish they would pay attention, maybe even hang up and drive.

I run my high beam during the day, wear a hi-vis vest most of the time and just pay attention to my surroundings. I have a matte gray scooter, but even when I had a pink Buddy scooter-yes pink-I still ride like no one sees me.

I wasn't too long ago here that someone pulled out in front of a very large fire engine with klaxon, strobe lights and a siren all going. The reason? "I just didn't see him".

One has to be on the defensive every moment you're on the road not matter what kind of vehicle you have. My ten years of driving charter buses and school buses gave me a pretty good idea that if you aren't the one looking out for yourself no one else is going to. I had a guy run into the side of a 45' Prevost motor coach during a left turn. After I go out to see what the hell he was doing he told me he didn't see my turn signal. I pointed out that there was two 12" turn lights on each side the re bus on the rear, another turn signal in the middle of the bus, one on the front side and one on the front all blinking in glorius synchrony and visible for over fifty yards on a bright day. He said he didn't think I was turning.

When driving school buses I turned in nearly a dozen car license numbers to the police belonging to drivers who didn't see my bus' flashing rear lights and the stop arm with it's flashing red strobe light when I was stopped either loading or unloading children.

I think that if you wrapped your scooter with strobe lights fired off skyrockets and set fire to you clothes someone would say they didn't see you after ramming you.

I put Kisan headlight modulators most of the bikes I've owned. I will be adding a Kisan Tailblazer on my Silverwing next week.

But I still keep my eyes peeled and my head on a swivel.

The thing that I find interesting about this topic is that it's another of these only in America things. Subjects like this get very little discussion on UK maxi forums, most likely because all you need is the mindset to treat all car drivers as unpredictable dick heads and ride accordingly.

If you want to wear hi-vis gear you do, but you then you're just another person in a bright yellow vest, along with post/mail men, delivery drivers, any bloke working in a hole, cyclists, and all the rest.

As for headlight modulators, if they were really any good don't you think maxi scooter manufacturers would be fitting them as standard by now, or or putting them on the higher spec versions. There doesn’t seem to be any need to fit rear lights that work similar to those AdMore light bars either.

The yellow vest / coat whatever isn't THAT common here unless you are a public worker, seldom do I see a rider wearing the hi vis yellow in my general area of travel, in fact black / dark colors are far more often seen being worn even by the BMW dual purpose riders all loaded down with their gear. exdavid comment on the school bus problem has gotten bad enough here that they new proposed and sure to pass law gets a $ 1,000.00 dollar and cost fine 1st offense but I doubt if even that will stop an idiot not paying attention.

Well Meldrew, I guess it the we ex-colonials just don't have the sophistication of our ex-betters. Driving over here is going to be different since we have many times the road mileage of the UK and several other countries combined. Add to that the geographic differences in that on this side of the Atlantic the US has everything from desert, high mountains and subtropical climates. All this doesn't make us better than anyone else but it does mean that most drivers here do experience widely varied driving conditions.

One can pretty well assume each country and geographic area develops different vehicles and rules that fit their circumstances. Assuming ours are different that yours it seems very logical to me that we do like to have vehicles with accessories and modifications that wouldn't suit your area just as you wouldn't need or want some that we like. Temperatures in my town often reach 109F (43C) or higher in summer. That might explain the desire for cup holders. Like the UK we have quite a bit of heavy fog in fall and winter so anything that helps illuminate our presence to other vehicles is a benefit. Thus headlight modulators and other modifications.

Meldrew wrote:

If you want to wear hi-vis gear you do, but you then you're just another person in a bright yellow vest, along with post/mail men, delivery drivers, any bloke working in a hole, cyclists, and all the rest.

As for headlight modulators, if they were really any good don't you think maxi scooter manufacturers would be fitting them as standard by now, or or putting them on the higher spec versions. There doesn’t seem to be any need to fit rear lights that work similar to those AdMore light bars either.

Two things I recall distinctly about a relatively recent trip to London: a diesel smell in the air, and it seemed just about every other person was wearing hi-vis there.

Regarding headlight modulators and light bars, in my experience (I used to work for US DOT) it's unusual (though not unheard of!) that manufacturers flock to add new safety features unless they're required by regulation.

I well recall having a 1978 Volvo with "Daytime running lights" on it, I used to get flashed by other drivers who thought I had left my lights on, it's not a new thing.

I really dislike this "Headlight on with ignition" regulation that has been forced on us for some quite pertinent reasons.
Now Exavid mentions there are different conditions in the states, well, over here we have to deal with shocking road surfaces, when it's cold the powers that be either cover the roads with road salt and grit or use a Molasses based anti ice road covering that works well when it's icy but turns into a particularly horrible slippery mess when it rains, and also covers everything, lights, riders, visors, paint with black sticky goo.
Because the roads aren't maintained that well, the top wearing layer is usually worn so thin that water gets through it, then turns to ice and expands and pretty much blows holes in the top course, and that's where the pot hole starts... On certain parts of the road you will get whole area's where the top course is pretty much destroyed, dealing with that mid corner can be interesting.

In summer, well, horses for courses, the road surface they use over here is either SMA which includes ground up glass as a part of it's make up (and is absolutely lethal in the wet until the top binding layer of tarmac is worn off) or macadam with 10mm stone in it. Sometimes you are lucky enough to find some shell grip. Or sometimes concrete slab but that is very wearing on tyres and suspensions and with our population usually quite close to main roadways it's not a favoured surface because it's really noisy.
The problem is, the road topping is "designed" to handle certain temperature variations, from -15C to about 35C, outside these "norms" it's pretty much too cold to form a bond with the tyre rubber, or it's like riding on tight packed sand. Unless of course it's concrete. That stuff might have been recently scabbled to take off the sheen of lots of traffic passing, or it might not have been in which case it's polished concrete.

That and the traffic density over here, well a reason I don't like instant on headlights is that a few years ago it was a "safety" feature if you like, that bikers would ride with headlights on. Now there's almost every vehicle showing lights, a quick scan might not highlight the bike in all the other lights approaching you, at night, in the rain for instance, could be anything coming.

So yes, us namby pamby polite but world conquering non colonials might have different things to deal with. Expecting other road users to give a monkey's about your safety is not usually an issue, most drivers these days either have their mobile phones barking instructions at them or multiple bleeps. boings and warning signals going off, all designed to take the drivers attention away.

Whoever thought putting touch screen music control systems in a car that can travel hundreds of yards whilst the operator is trying to turn to another noise source whilst staring intently at the screen completely ignoring what is going on outside should die of ebola. They must be killing and maiming thousands every day.

The only safety feature that might work would be a spike in the centre of the steering wheel about 10 inches away from your chest that got closer the longer you didn't look out of the windows.
End of the day your safety is your responsibility. If you think having your bike fire off flares like a Hercules landing at a hostile airbase in Afghanistan is the answer, then go for it. Me? I assume I'm invisible, the cage drivers don't know I'm there.

A dayglow vest is pointless. Yes they can see you from behind, but in my defence I've never yet seen a motorcyclist reverse at speed into a car that just pulled out.

Yup, a dayglow vest is just as pointless as seat belts, horns, headlights, brakes, good tires, traffic lights, stop signs, crossing guards, etc. They are just unnecessary restrictions and never work. Assume you are invisible and you will be protected at all times.

yes I also was wondering where the article over the deteriorating UK roads would lead us.
I think it all depends where in the world you are riding and what is the environment there.
If everybody runs around in yellow vests, use a neon pink one and you stay out.
If everybody runs with lights, use high beams during the day and you stay out.
If everybody plays with the gadgets and does not look on the road get the loudest horn possible. Honk the horn and you will get noticed. (I saw a Golden Wing once in the States who had mounted truck horns - the air compressor had it´s own battery).
I remember the 1959 Citroen DS already had 2 horns, one for the city and one (louder) for over land.
A simple half second delay realy what activates the louder horn is a simplest solution.

Most air horns suitable for a motorcycle/scooter don't have air tanks like trucks and buses. Since it takes a couple of seconds for the compressor in the horn to build up pressure one can connect a motorcycle air horn in parallel with the OEM horn on the bike. Done that way you can get a polite 'beep' with a short poke at the horn button or a very much louder WONK from the air horn by holding down the button for a couple more seconds. It gives a nice way to be polite of a bit more demanding. Works great.

How often do you actually sound your horn? I know in some countries a nanosecond is the time between  traffic/stop lights changing to green before someone hits a horn button. Using it when it's not essential or just to show annoyance at someone is just being a twat. So is fitting some way over the top non standard air horn to sound like a truck or train, I'd say some of the blokes that fit them it's probably the only horn that they get.  

Assume you are invisible and you will be protected at all times. Quote

So true. I always wear a white helmet but that's it. So much cooler in summer and a little more visible.

Twats will still not see you. Haven't heard that word in a long time.

They're an endangered species nowadays but back in the 70's and 80's we had 'Dayglo Dereks'. Older riders who rode old ex-Police air cooled BMW RT's or Honda CX500's fitted with a white fibre glass fairing and panniers.

They were usually BMW and BMF types who wore white full face or open face helmets, a black wax cotton jacket complete with a Dayglo yellow hi-vis Sam Browne belt, and high legged Derriboots with their pants tucked into them.

They'd brag to normal riders, and send letters to motorcycle magazines telling tall tales of how all traffic in front of them would slow down and give way as car drivers thought they were Police motorcyclists.

In my driving environment it is often necessary to honk before you enter a small curve when you can not see if somebody is coming and the curve is a bit small for 2 cars to pass.
Also to warn biciclists when they riding in more than 2 together because they block one lane and you should pass them by a 2 meter margin what would bring you onto the non existing curb of the opposite part of the street.
Often a horn is used to bring a driver back into his or her lane when they play with whatever again.
Son in my part ther is plenty of usage for a horn, but on a red light only it it is 5 seconds green and the motorist on the light has not moved.
We never honk when the road is blocked by 2 cars where the windows are down and they are talking. You just polite roll slowly towards the car until they notice you, then it is less than 10 seconds until the blockage is cleared.

Many years ago when I was a young fellow on the coastal roads of Oregon and Washington where the curves were wrapped around the bottom of cliffs and steep hills on the coast it was common practice to sound one's car horn to warn drivers if any, coming the other way on the narrow roads. There used to be a couple of very narrow, short tunnels where there were highway signs requiring one to sound their horn before entering the tunnel. Especially because some were curved enough one couldnt's see any opposing traffic until both cars met in the middle.

Human brain is strange . It will ignore things that are there if no real threat is perceived. You see it but brain ignores it. SO many bad distracted drivers out there. Middle finger works well to just to let them know they screwed up.

if they do not see you, how should they see a tiny part of you waggling around???

Flipping off a driver does tend to cause cases of 'Road Rage'. Not a good idea when you're on a 500lb vehicle vs. a 5000lb car.

I did a visual test today at a roundabout.
The normal vehicle in a warm environment is white or silver gray (around 75%) the rest is all kinds of colors more or less bright.
I was looking out what was catching my eye and I have to say that nothing really stood out.
We have huge buses in bright orange but after seeing them for a while even they blend in to the traffic.
I might to do some more research why this is the case.

It has been proven that 3 spaced lights on the front draw attention. Also the viewer can then accurately interpret whether the vehicle is approaching and at what speed.
At least that is my solution to being (in)visible. Since I mounted really bright strobes in addition to the regular bright lights, I have had absolutely no trouble.

The human eye has a restricted field of vision. The central vision (i.e. the angle covered by the fovea centralis, the region which allows us to see sharp images) is restricted to maybe 15 degrees. If you look at the deviations of the inverse tangens function from a linear function for those angles, you will find that they are small. Outside of this limited area the human brain is, indeed, extrapolating the image.
The brain does stuff to input image data you don't even want to think about! If you dig up some articles on image interpretation, you'll find the proportion of what you think you see that's actually constructed, or "filled-in" by your brain range as high as 90%.

This topic is getting silly now, it's just riding a maxi scooter. Switch on to the fact that everyone else on the road is a stupid and unpredictable bell end and you'll be fine.

Alternatively, stay at home, worry about it and Google weird stuff like the previous poster.

Weird as it is it's a fact the person that says I didn't see him officer may be right after all, at least in that persons mind. Glancing to the side of your vision pattern instead of looking straight on leads to that. I've been a painful victim to a I didn't even see him syndrome, truly he didn't see me as he wasn't really looking at me he was looking into his left turn when I hit him.

when I learned driving instructor in one of my previous lives, there was also a psychlogigal part were we learned a lot of the pitfalls a driving instructor should tell his pupils about, but they never do.
There was a thing with colors and thinking you are visible but aren´t. The most important sentence I carried over from that time is that you always have to scan your surroundings for escape paths, think for your driving and watch if the other driver sees you, be defensive and react quick if the situation and bike permits it.
This is one reason while my Honda is in less than 2 seconds in every situation at max torque and 95% HP (read at 7000 rpm)

Situational awareness. Says it all.

Eye's wheels and rear view mirror cage or bike. Have a great Thanksgiving all.

bikehiker wrote:

Yup, a dayglow vest is just as pointless as seat belts, horns, headlights, brakes, good tires, traffic lights, stop signs, crossing guards, etc. They are just unnecessary restrictions and never work. Assume you are invisible and you will be protected at all times.  

Assume you are invisible to all other road users if you needed the clarity.
They haven't seen you so expect them to stop, open doors, do U turns in the road, drive where they are looking, turn then indicate, wash their windscreens, indicate one way then go the other.


Anticipate it will happen and it won't catch you out when it does.

And yes, absolutely a "Dayglo" vest is completely pointless. You see them everywhere so another one hurtling up a road flapping around the body of a motorcyclist won't be seen.
The human eye does react to movement, but only if it's looking that way, we are predators with binocular vision, not prey with eyes on each side of our heads.

Meldrew wrote:

How often do you actually sound your horn? I know in some countries a nanosecond is the time between  traffic/stop lights changing to green before someone hits a horn button. Using it when it's not essential or just to show annoyance at someone is just being a twat. So is fitting some way over the top non standard air horn to sound like a truck or train, I'd say some of the blokes that fit them it's probably the only horn that they get.  

Erm. Usually when I take my bike for it's annual VOSA check, I press the horn button to see if it works. Other than that, never.

I'm the same, although now I'm riding a Forza it's all too easy to occasionally hit the horn button instead of the indicators with my thumb. So at least I know it's working, and it's loud enough too.