Weight, density, mass, resistance, force, pressure

I realize you need a certain amount of weight for high speed stability, ride comfort, road grip, etc... but in my ity bity opinion I think the biggest mistake Honda made was to settle on the idea of a 500lbs scooter. I don’t care if it has a relatively impressive 50hp or not. I haven’t weighed this Pork O yet but the first time I tried to man handle it, move it, and load it..... I knew that even if this beast is the best Cadillac riding 2 wheel touring machine on the road that this crap simply is not going to cut it. Pro’s and Con’s to everything but when it comes to my vehicles weight I mostly see Con’s. I read the Swing weight wet is somewhere between 511-550lbs. Best I can tell the ABS system looks to only add 5-6lbs judging from pics of people selling used parts. Originally I was hoping to get a Swing without ABS but now I’m kinda glad this 2003 does have the option. That opinion is subject to change. Ask me in about a year.

It all comes down to Power to Weight Ratio. 10lbs per each HP is a decent starting point to what I call the entry level of performance. If you have a fully loaded 550lbs Swing and a 200lbs rider is 750lbs /49HP = 15.3lbs per HP. Leaving torque out the subject look how peppy the stock Swing feels. It screams potential doesn’t it? Now imagine at 10lbs or even 8lbs per HP. Could you not help but smiling ear to ear every time you cracked the throttle? Isn’t that what it’s all about? I doubt anybody has the intention to outrun the 200+ HP crotch rockets and or Harley drag bikes. And if so contact me ASAP. Lol.

So here is where the debate begins. Add power or reduce weight. Yes both is the correct answer but for argument sake I say hands down reducing weight is better. The Pro’s of weight reduction is plentiful and the Con’s of adding power are plentiful as well. Less weight not only accelerates and stops better, it never wears out, less strain on parts, better MPG, most reductions are free to little cost, the integrity of the drivetrain is unchanged, the stock transmission/ suspension/ brakes can handle more power than originally designed.

For me I have to ask myself.... Do I really need a 17.2lb muffler?19lb. trunk with rack and 3rd brake light? Is the trunk rack really worth 6.5lbs? Is the passenger foot pegs rarely used worth 4.8lbs? Is the CVT plastic covers worth 3.2lb.? For me the answer is NO. I’ll gladly bolt things back on as needed but why carry all the extra weight around all the time just hindering the situation? So starting out I’m shooting to drop weight about 100lbs and add maybe 10HP. Let’s look at those numbers:

Stock 550lb plus 200lb rider @ 49hp = 15.3lbs per HP
ARC 450lb plus 180lb rider @ 59hp = 10.6lbs per HP

To match that the 750lbs Swinger would need to make 70.5 HP

In a car drag racing for every 100lbs less weight equal .10th of a second quicker. On a bike every 10lbs less weight is a .10th of a second. So 100lbs less weight is a full second quicker in 1320ft. That’s a lot. So time I’m done building the Bobber Swing it should be around 300-350lbs(maybe less) at 60HP which falls out as follows: 325lb bike, 180lbs rider / 60 = 8.41lbs per HP with basically a box stock engine. I’m not looking for a Maxi-Scooter.... I’m after a Super Scooter!!

Interesting exercise your setting yourself, but I can't help but think your trying to make a race horse out a donkey.
Another few torques would be nice though as it would be usable on a standard bike, how about a big bore to take it out to 650 - 700? I imagine the whole drive train would need a fettle then though but that shouldn't be too complicated.

Being the cynical old git I am, I just think why bother. The Silver Wing already has enough performance to cruise effortlessly at German autobahn speeds until the tank is nearly empty and your bladder full. Then after a break you go off and do it again, and again if necessary.

Fit a decent screen and you can ride all day in wet weather and have the ability to carry a load of your stuff. Go tour on it, ride to somewhere you've never been, and eat stuff you can't get at home.

Start ripping the bodywork off a Silver Wing and it'll end up looking like the skeletor Honda Ruckus. Which is OK if you want to wear a baseball cap back to front, carry a skateboard around and call people 'dude'.

The whole point of having a maxi scooter is the convenience of twist n' go performance, good wind and weather protection, and the ability to carry stuff.

My book, first the SilverWing is a scooter, a pretty good one, old design. I suggest you go out and ride it 10,000 miles or so, learning the bike and how to work on it. Having lived/ridden in both the US and many years in Europe----SilverWing is fast enough for US speeds and road conditions, ok for right lane travel in Germany----and taken care of they do not break. Right screen, weather protection and all day comfort is there. And remember they ain't cheap to fix!!

The curmudgeons have spoken!  

My current scooter has even less added and works fine---2019, bought new, Kymco XTown 300i ABS--Puig touring screen backed up by bolted on Laminar Lip, O Ring Cruise control, my 500,000 plus mile E-46 Givi Box bolted directly to rear wing-----at 81 may soon need even lighter scooter, 10,000 plus miles on this one----got the Maint. figured out: checked valves at 10,000, do again at 30,000, checked Air Cleaner at 10,000, may change at 30,000 miles, changed rear end oil, too at 10,000.

Bike is nice to ride, easy to work on, 2 year warranty in US, like all 11 new rubber band drive scooters I have owned, carry fresh OEM drive belt! Using Heidenau tires right now=great.

I must admit Arc582 that I agree with most of the comments. It sounds like you may have bought the wrong bike. Perhaps a sport-bike would be a better fit? The Silver Wing is for stately cruising not break-neck speeds. Certainly you can shave a few pounds, or increase the HP a bit but then you will tax the suspension.

Ride it a while and see what you think. Hopefully you will appreciate the scooter's true purpose.

Meldrew wrote:

The curmudgeons have spoken!  

Hear, Hear!!! Harumph Harumph!!!

bandito2 wrote:

Meldrew wrote:

The curmudgeons have spoken!  

Hear, Hear!!! Harumph Harumph!!!

I'd get that online throat clearing checked out if I were you mate, unless it's a Michigan thing. At least wear your online face mask when you're harrumphing.

First off, I'm with the others regarding trying to make a donkey into a racehorse, but, it has been done before, there is even a link to a video on here somewhere of a Silverwing leaving a Harley 'for dead' straight line drag racing.
Ignore modifying the engine & weight reduction, the biggest gains are (apparently) to be had from modifying componants in the drive train, drive pulley weights to change the rate of acceleration, clutch block spring strength to change the 'bite point', etc
Try looking on Japanese scooter sites for info, modified scooters are a big thing over there.

I think some are missing ARC582's point.  He knows what he currently has in his SWing.  He enjoys the challenge of getting the most out of decent if not pedestrian performing machines and he wants to modify his SWing to get the most out of it ... i.e. build a "super-scooter".

It really doesn't matter if we think it's a good idea or not ... or whether we'd do it or not ... or even if we personally think it can be done or not (although he has asked members to share their technical know-how based on the site's collected brain trust -- he certainly has not asked that his vision and passion be poo pooed upon.)    

I say it's his vision and let him go for it.  I, for one, am curious.

FWIW - I like Mr. Grinsel's new avatar ... the facial expression is appropriate. IMO - I think Meldrew's avatar is too happy looking to be an accurate representation.

I'm sorry my new avatar isn't as true to life as yours wearing your George Burns replica specs with no lenses in them. I can't peel bananas with my feet either.

Despite what you think of my online persona I'm happy, even though Chez Meldrew has been without internet since Monday, as our new internet service provider still hasn't sent the new router.

So I made a Slab Eccles Cake from scratch today, including the time consuming all butter flaky pastry from scratch. The spice rich Vostizza currants mixture also needed some cognac or Armagnac, I couldn't find our brandy so I used some Glenfiddich 14 Years Old Rich Oak Single Malt. I'm not a Scotch drinker so why not.

The finished Eccles Cake which is more of a pastry and named after Eccles, a small town in Lancashire turned out great, it's delicious sliced warm, Mrs M liked it and I'll definitely make it again, so I'm definitely happy.

Which all these things considering is a more interesting and constructive way to spending another lockdown day than musing or worrying about what myself and others think of a new owners plans for his Silver Wing.

Anyway why waste time, effort, and money on attempting to turn an old Silver Wing into a theoretical 'super scooter' or 'bobber'. The Yamaha TMax 500/530 is a lot more suitable and already has a full catalogue of tuning and performance parts.

It's another case of old men farkling, and whether it actually happens is anyone's guess.  

Meldrew wrote:

... I'm sorry my new avatar isn't as true to life as yours wearing your George Burns replica specs with no lenses in them. I can't peel bananas with my feet either.

These are my glam glasses.  i don't really need lenses ... especially to peel the bananas ... I peel by feel.

Meldrew wrote:

... So I made a Slab Eccles Cake from scratch today, including the time consuming all butter flaky pastry from scratch. The spice rich Vostizza currants mixture also needed some cognac or Armagnac, I couldn't find our brandy so I used some Glenfiddich 14 Years Old Rich Oak Single Malt. I'm not a Scotch drinker so why not.

The finished Eccles Cake which is more of a pastry and named after Eccles, a small town in Lancashire turned out great, it's delicious sliced warm, Mrs M liked it and I'll definitely make it again, so I'm definitely happy.

Sounds very yummy ...

Meldrew wrote:

... Anyway why waste time, effort, and money on attempting to turn an old Silver Wing into a theoretical 'super scooter' or 'bobber'. The Yamaha TMax 500/530 is a lot more suitable and already has a full catalogue of tuning and performance parts.

It's another case of old men farkling, and whether it actually happens is anyone's guess.  

For the same reason people will take an old '57 Chevy family sedan, spend a small fortune performing a resto-mod on it and turn it into whatever dream machine their heart desires. I believe the saying is ... to each their own.

What people do to 60 year old American cars is irrelevant on here mate. So are posts about hot rods, stock cars, trucks or whatever. Then mentioning a Silver Wing is their first ever maxi scooter and they're going to do this, that, or the other to it. Especially when they don't know squat about maxi scooters and have no maxi riding miles under their belt.

OP if you fancy putting a turbo on it, then read what the University of Buffalo did & the results ..... http://www.mtukrc.org/download/buffalo/suny_buffalo_design_paper_2005.pdf

Meldrew wrote:

The finished Eccles Cake which is more of a pastry and named after Eccles, a small town in Lancashire turned out great,
:

Hi bud Glad it turned out well but I thought it was named after Ken Barlowe's dog in Coronation Street

Hi bud, the only pets I remember from Coronation Street are Minnie Caldwell's tabby cat Bobby, and many years later a large dog called Schmeichel that some ginger kid had named after the Man Utd goalkeeper.

The actor that plays Ken Barlow is now aged 88, Mr G is a toy boy in comparison.

We all watch Corrie but don’t admit it.....

Meldrew wrote:

 Minnie Caldwell's tabby cat Bobby

Hi bud  Blimey, that's going back a bit, her & Ena Sharples having a glass of milk stout in the snug & Albert Tatlock with a pint of mild proping  the main bar & the kids today think they invented 'reality tv'


They don't make such quality tv these days  .......

Installed slip-on, ditched air box, added 15 degree Pod Uni-Filter, installed the DynoTune PC with the richest Europeon map(503), installed a Malossi variator w/ 24g rollers, Shortened windshield, and removed 56lbs of total weight.

Runs great at all speeds. Not a blip, blubber, hesitation, stumble, fall, miss, flat spot, extra heat, nothing. A good bit quicker. More in the ballpark I was looking for. I think a drive-train like this will work nicely in a feather lite 150cc scooter/Ruckus as a weekend street scooter terror. Not taking this Swing apart or gutting it. Too nice. Love the Honda Swing. No Sportbikes here.

ARC582 wrote:

Installed slip-on, ditched air box, added 15 degree Pod Uni-Filter, installed the DynoTune PC with the richest Europeon map(503), installed a Malossi variator w/ 24g rollers, Shortened windshield, and removed 56lbs of total weight.

Runs great at all speeds. Not a blip, blubber, hesitation, stumble, fall, miss, flat spot, extra heat, nothing. A good bit quicker. More in the ballpark I was looking for. I think a drive-train like this will work nicely in a feather lite 150cc scooter/Ruckus as a weekend street scooter terror. Not taking this Swing apart or gutting it. Too nice. Love the Honda Swing. No Sportbikes here.

Sounds interesting. What slip on did you go with? Do you have any before/after stats other than "seat of the pants" observations? I would be interested to see what effect the various mods you made had on performance.

Also, where did you get the European map for the PC?

I went with the $180 shorty SS 9” Delkevic which they claim a few ponies but I’m mainly satisfied with the sound and weight savings. Nice rumble/throaty but not annoying like open-exhaust/drag pipes. I had DynoTune email me the only 5 maps available. Eventually I’ll dyno run it but right now not sure if it’s worth the $500 I was quoted. For now I was just looking to be in the ballpark on the richer side.

Today I noticed on cold start it took 3 tries. Once warm it fires first bump of the starter. I was thinking about richen 0 throttle position at 800-1200RPM so I started comparing maps. The US stock upgrade map actually has more rich(positive numbers) than the Race Euro map. Interesting enough it seems the stock upgrade map is richer all through up to 3700RPM and the Euro map is richer from 4000RPM up. I’m thinking about combining the two maps for a custom map. Regardless I need to dial in the cold start. Runs good. Now the side cover driven pulley bearing is making noise. Going to change that bearing, pull clutch, grease inner bearings, etc.

Stock set up seemed to be really sluggish from dead stop trying to move all the weight. Once rolling it did better but kinda sluggish while under the powerband. At 5000+ RPM it really came in strong. Now it’s stronger across the board except dead stop initial take off. The clutch seems to come in a little too soon. About 2000RPM. My small scooters engage the clutch around 3000-3200. Seems to me a little stiffer clutch springs is needed. Just enough to free up a little RPM but not enough to start making the rollers climb and start shifting gear ratio. Need the full low gear. Also going to add the white torque spring.

Once the seat of my pants feel satisfied I’ll take it to the drag strip for a couple data runs. I’ve read somewhere the Swing runs about 17 second 1/4 mile passes and a few people are down in the 15’s. Feels about like 14’s to me but launching that heavy beast will surely slow things down. My 232cc 4 stroke small scoot actually pulls a better 60ft with the rear wheel spinning causing higher RPM launch.

Doesn't the ECU original map vary the output in stages to only allow 'full throttle' after a certain point? If this is still going in the background or have you now ditched the original mapping entirely?
I could have this entirely wrong mind not having messed about with that kind of thing myself.

I've never seen an explanation of the 3-stage operation other than the engine sitting at 5000 rpm when accelerating with a large throttle opening. Anyone know the detail?

I’m new to the Swing and FI being an old school carb man but to the best of my knowledge the 2002 to 2007 have no 02 senser (mine is 03) which has no feedback so the ecu basically does vary the fuel map from a very creative chart the engineers designed so the ecu reads IAT, etc and basically picks what it thinks you should need which is damn close for most owners in total stock trim. Even the ‘08 and newer Swings with a O2 senser doesn’t control the map via O2 feedback during cold start and WOT. So basically all factory tunes are already set on the lean side so when you start jacking with air-filters and free flowing exhaust your certainly going on the uncomfortable lean side even if it seems to run fine.

The plug and play Power Commander piggy backs in the factory wiring and takes control of your fuel map. So yes the original map is gone and the only map being used is the one downloaded to the PC. One of five maps available or a custom map you or a dyno tuner will build for you. Ideally the best tune will be a real time dyno run through the RPM band while monitoring everything including the air-fuel ratio.

Not sure if asking about the 3 stage buttons on the PC but if you are it is easy. You can manually tune any stage of the RPM on the fly by richening or leaning using bar graph LED’s. Just plug in a 9volt battery via connector, in first few seconds of power up hit all 3 buttons at once. The bar graph goes to zero or near zero where ever it’s set at. Push whatever range you need then scroll up and down. Each LED light click above or below the zero mark is just a few percent.

All experts are free to chime in and set the record straight.

Scooter mods

https://youtu.be/s5IKthNYhVY

steve_h80 wrote:

Doesn't the ECU original map vary the output in stages to only allow 'full throttle' after a certain point? If this is still going in the background or have you now ditched the original mapping entirely?
I could have this entirely wrong mind not having messed about with that kind of thing myself.

Twist the grip throttle plates are open fully. ECU may have some kind of engine timing delay until a certain speed is achieved but who knows. If it has something like this you won't be able to change it unless ECU can be reprogrammed. MAP is just the fuel settings. Ideal Air-Fuel ratio for power is 12.5-7 or so best setting to burn clean is 14.7 mostly.