Type of Grease for Driven Pulley Assy.

I've ordered new Bearings, Oil Seals and 'O' rings for my driven pulley assembly. I want to make sure I use the correct grease on reassembly. I'm referring to the moveable driven face mechanism.

The service manual says: "Use multi-purpose grease (lithium based multi-purpose grease NLGI #2 or equivalent"). Our friend on the SWCI You Tube site is using 'CV' grease.

I Googled 'CVT grease' and it made my head spin!! All the specific 'CVT grease' is in foreign language and I'd prefer to buy more locally, so I'm wondering whether CV grease would be more durable than NLGI, provided it could handle the heat.

Any suggestions would be gratefully considered

Honda's recommendation of #2 thickness lithium works just fine. It is somewhat the consistency of creamy peanut butter and is just right for the ball bearing as well as the needle bearing. It is good for about 130 degrees celsius or 266 degrees fahrenheit. It is doubtful that the grease will ever get that hot. Lubing the bearings is the primary consideration and almost any decent grease would handle the sliding of the moveable pulley. But we should never mix different types of grease because it could turn soupy or become too thick.

I believe that CVT grease is meant for other styles of CVT drives rather than our rubber belt drives.

zrx212 has some very helpful info on rebuilding the Driven Pulley. IIRC he mentions Lucas “green” grease for those DP bearings.

Here’s a link to that DP rebuild discussion: https://www.silverwing600.com/t7766-driven-pulley-assembly-rebuild

Well considering I've have seen quite a few "Blue" clutch bells on scooters and considering steel blues at over 500F(+260C), mostly from heavy traffic use, I realize not all that heat is transfered to bearings, but in general it's a very hot area. IME you should use the highest temperature grease you can find, I prefer Polyurea grease for a lot of reasons, but main ones is higher temperature resistance and last longer than any lithium complex.

Thanks everyone and to Tim for the link. I was more interested in how to remove the bearings than considering the type of grease mentioned in that link.

I have made my own tools for the job so just waiting for the parts to arrive. I'll be interested to know whether my squealing noise might be one of those bearings 'howling' a bit. I'll post my results.

Here’s an illustration that zrx212 posted on the BUSA forum of the Burgman 400 Driven Pulley, which is essentially the same as the Silverwing DP. It’s a great visual explainer for removing the needle bearing. While other similar  illustrations he’s posted here show how to remove the DP roller bearing.

That's a neat trick. One for the library and a very nice diagram. Having gone to the trouble of making my own tool, it will force the roller bearing down the shaft and then 'collect' the needle bearing on it's way out. They come out together. (I have a feeling I read about this method here on the forum).

I did a trial run on a spare DP assembly:



This is a staged picture and it's not shown but I used the other half of the pulley as a spacer for the bearings to exit into:

Is it just me or is there something very satisfying about removing and replacing bearings?? It's almost like mechanical surgery in a life or death situation because if you get it wrong you could be in some deep doo doo  

Loosemarbles wrote:

Is it just me or is there something very satisfying about removing and replacing bearings?? It's almost like mechanical surgery in a life or death situation because if you get it wrong you could be in some deep doo doo  

   

We see a lot of comments such as "Just pay the dealer to fix it", "Put it in the shop", "It won't cost much for someone else to do it".  People who make such remarks will never understand the satisfaction that one gets from solving complex mechanical or electrical problems.  Saving some money usually plays a small part. Busy hands are happy hands.  I would throw away a lot of time if I didn't spend it on my beloved scooter.

Somehow that reminds me of an old joke:  A man said that he spends most of his money on booze, cigarettes, and bad women and the rest of his money he just throws away.

If I had paid myself for all the time and money I've spent on doing it myself, I'd have enough money to pay the dealer to do it!

Here's the other diagram for replacing both bearings, "Yellow" washer is for removal, "Red"is for installation. this is revised version. You can substitute washers for sockets, rod diameter, etc., etc..

Another point to consider about "Honda" recommended grease and lubes in their shop manual, in a nutshell they are dated, some of that info is 20yrs old !! and have been superseded by newer, better or environment friendly products.

Worth mentioning again Polyurea type grease is "NOT" compatible with any other grease, you must wash any grease out of bearings even if it's new, may consider sticking to a Lithium complex grease. IAC is not a bad idea to wash any grease out to prevent chemical reactions. A plastic/rubber safe electrical connector spray cleaner works good to clean bearings, no harsh solvents.

Another great diagram. I could adapt my home made tool to remove the bearings in that manner, it seems more logical that way.

I'm having trouble deciding which grease to use now. If my new bearings come with #2 grease, should I just go with that?....or, if I decide on a different grease, will it be possible to remove 'every trace' of the #2 grease from new bearings so that there is no contamination?

MY new parts won't arrive for a week so in the meantime, tell me more, tell me more....

The NLGI #2 grade or rating only pertains to the consistency of the grease, not it's formulation, there could be literally hundreds of different types in the #2 range, if you stick to a lithium based grease you will be ok, as far as compatibility. Just look for one that can handle up to 500F(260C), more to come ...

You've almost convinced me. I'll do a search for brands of #2 grease. It could be love at first sight...

Sorry, when I mentioned temp rating numbers, is really the flash points or maximum intermittent/momentary value, you really need a grease with a normal operating temp of around 300F or 150C, easily found !!

Since we are figuratively picking the fly sh*t out of the pepper shaker, on page 1-18 this is the grease that is specifically called for:

Driven face boss inner surface Lithium based grease (Shell ALVANIA R3, Nippon Oil Movable driven face cam groove POWERNOC WB3 , Idemitsu Kosan AUTOLEX B or equivalent)

I researched the Shell Alvania R3 and it is has a #3 consistency rating and 150 degree C rating. Might be hard to find. Just flip a coin. Any name brand grease with a consistency rating of 2 and that is recommended for ball bearings should work well. If you want to overthink something come and help me find more tax deductions.

Shell Gadus S3 V220C is a good lithium complex choice and should be available in both US and UK, etc.
US retail $8-10.

Thanks you guys. This is ‘need to know’ stuff for us rookies. It was our SWCI Italian friend which made me curious about this. It didn't feel right putting regular wheel bearing grease in that driven assembly.

It’s a case of ‘RTFM’, and I don’t mean ‘flight’. (look it up').

I misread the assembly diagram in the manual.

It shows the 'Grease' symbol for the ‘O’ rings and oil seals. The ‘Symbols’ description shows: “Use multi-purpose grease (lithium based multi-purpose grease NLGI #2 or equivalent).”  Is there a risk of contamination?.....probably not!

The greases suggested above are available here in the UK, in a range of colours…splendid!, so it’s time to go shopping.

I’ll take this as a ‘kick up the pants’ from this forum.

Having done some window shopping and some Googling, is the 'dropping point' the same as the maximum temperature range?

Loosemarbles wrote:

Having done some window shopping and some Googling, is the 'dropping point' the same as the maximum temperature range?

The dropping point is where it becomes liquid/breaks down, it's the usable temperature limit.

I've been doing some research on this pesky grease. I found this on eBay. This is the original grease suggested by Honda.



I might go for this. I'm struggling to find the equivalent in today's money. The modern equivalent doesn't seem to hold the same 'dropping point' as xrx212 has shown above.

Does unused grease deteriorate with age?

That grease is too old, is usable shelf life expired long time ago, IAC why would you use a grease type that's obsolete. There plenty high temperature lithium complex greases in auto parts stores that are suitable for up to 500F(260c) ceramic disc brakes and are much better/modern formulation.

My new bearings came ready-greased and it 'feels' like normal bearing grease, i.e. not tacky. Can I be sure that my choice of grease won't contaminate the new bearing grease? I don't want to have to sterilize my new bearings.

I'd like to know which type of grease Honda are using on these new bearings but Googling this is proving difficult.

Loosemarbles wrote:

My new bearings came ready-greased and it 'feels' like normal bearing grease, i.e. not tacky. Can I be sure that my choice of grease won't contaminate the new bearing grease? I don't want to have to sterilize my new bearings.

I'd like to know which type of grease Honda are using on these new bearings but Googling this is proving difficult.

And you probably will never know, unless otherwise specified the most commonly used grease "type" by manufacturers in roller bearings is "Lithium Complex, NLGI #2", any grease with that specification will be compatible !!

 IMO the original Alvania grease or any alternative they replaced it with, was NLGI#3(very thick/wax like) and has very poor flow/temperature characteristics, you should dismiss that "Rabbit Hole" and move on !!

The only way to be 100% sure the grease is compatible is to wash out  grease and repack with new type, a plastic safe connector cleaner and a few minutes will take care of that, let air dry and repack, done+ done.

I just received an email from 'Lube Finder' and they tell me this:

"Shell Alvania R3 was replaced with Shell Alvania RL3. Shell Alvania RL3 was replaced with Shell Gadus S2 V100 3". (Although, I couldn't see it on their conversion chart). Here's the spec:



It's consistency is #3 with a dropping point of 180°. Is that sufficient? My instinct tells me that it gets hotter than 180° in there.  

Stop Press: The Alviana R3 (Honda recommended), has a dropping of 180° to 185°.

I don't really understand why the Shell Alvania or it's replacements, etc., continues to be discussed. Based solely on it's specifications(Not my opinion !!) It's really not applicable/desireable for use in the cvt, "Not even when Honda decided to recommend it almost 20yrs ago", most of the shelf high temperature grease will exceed the Alvania, that my last comment on the topic, time to move on.

I've gone for the Shell Gadus S3 V220C 2 as suggested by zrx212. Should arrive tomorrow.

Meanwhile, I've dismantled the driven assembly and look what I found, bearing in mind that this is cold; imagine what it's like when it gets hot.



Proof that grease contamination is BAD

I've started to reassemble my driven pulley assembly. I was surprised to see that the service manual tells me to put 23 - 28 grams of grease into the driven face inner surface. I've done that and it seems like a lot. Stefano Bonnacasa on You Tube doesn't appear to put any in at all!

I assumed that the bearings carried the driven pulley on the drive shaft and that grease would not be required inside the driven face inner surface, well...maybe a smear?

Any thoughts?

It would have been better if Honda had used double sealed bearings because grease tends to be thrown out of bearings that are open on one side. Since Honda didn't do that a supply of grease is needed for replenishment. The recommended amount of grease along with centrifugal force will push some grease back into the bearings. I don't care for the construction but it does perform quite well.

That's logical thinking and I am inclined to agree. What I don't want is grease creeping along the drive shaft into the clutch pad/drum area. I assume that the seal on the needle bearing is designed to do just that but like you, I don't care for the design. Maybe it was one of those dreaded 'afterthoughts' in the design process?

I have to admit liability in 'topping up' the grease inside the driven half with the wrong type of grease and so caused serious contamination, creating a type of liquid which would find its way between atoms! I'll put my faith in the service manual, along with invaluable advice from this forum, and see how it goes

Manual states 7-9 g of grease in each guide groove the sliding pins, 23-28 g in driven face inner face.
Last time I had it apart there was two different types of grease in there. That black grease was in grooves and inner was a yellow wheel bearing type.
These photos are from a driven pulley I bought off EBAY from a 2013 SW wreck parted out funny it has a date of 2016 on there.

"Last time I had it apart there was two different types of grease in there."

Grease is nothing more than some type of oil mixed into some kind of base material.  In the clutch the centrifugal force causes some separation.  The pin and groove areas become black and soupy with a mixture of oil, tiny bits of 0-ring rubber, and a lot of metal particles.  Meanwhile, in the bore of the beast the grease maintains its color but develops a very thin crust because of the oil separation.  And yet, it works.

The oil in the front forks also turns black given enough time and it starts out clear in some brands.  Unfortunately maintenance is very necessary.

OK, job done. I used the Shell Gadus grease throughout the assembly.

Bike is running nicely so it just remains to see if any of that pesky grease starts to contaminate my clutch pads.

That's why I took on this job in the first place. I sure learned a lot about grease too.

. " I sure learned a lot about grease too."
Yes, is kinda of a "sticky" and "slippery" topic, IAC you should keep a lid on it,

zrx212 wrote:

. " I sure learned a lot about grease too."
Yes, is kinda of a "sticky" and "slippery" topic, IAC you should keep a lid on it,

There oughta be a law against groan-worthy puns.

You might find that there is.

I believe there is a law in England which forbids toothpaste to be sold on Sundays.