Two Up Riding

Hi All,
Was wondering if there is/are some proven/suggested practice procedures for getting use to two-up riding. Keeping in mind that I've had my Swing now for two years, am pretty well adept at handling it in most any given situation, but was a brand new rider when I got it. Short of a quick jaunt out in my pasture or a few blocks in town, I've never carried a passenger before. Any suggestions ? ?

Note: I'm posting this on 3 forums in case it looks familiar now.

DickO wrote:

Was wondering if there is/are some proven/suggested practice procedures for getting use to two-up riding.

For the passenger I provide them a very simple rule of when you see me leaning ... lean in the same direction and keep looking over my shoulder

With my wife riding, I do not notice any difference. With my daughter riding, she does not lean much... and I can notice the difference. Periodically I may be in a turn (that I have made many many many times) and surprised to feel the need for more lean to make the turn because my daughter is riding stiff or even fighting the lean. I then push the handlebar forward the the way I am turning ... for example turning right push the right handlebar forward or turning left push the left handlebar forward which will change the lean of the SWing allowing me to maintain the line of the curve.

If I was not counter-steering and tried to muscle the turn it would be harder, slower and potentially dangerous.

DickO wrote:

Short of a quick jaunt out in my pasture or a few blocks in
town, I've never carried a passenger before. Any suggestions ? ?

The best way to simulate and practice would be to add weight like one (later two stacked) fifty pound bags across the passenger seat. The weight is not going lean (unless it is falling off ) so it would help you to learn to compensate properly in the turns.

Thanks Bill,
Soon as our weather breaks again (to much cold and rain to be playin' around) I'll see what I can find for some wieghted sacks to put behind me. Maybe just a couple of sand bags for truck weights. Will let you know how I make out.

make sure to tell passenger to hold on tight and check by blipping the throttle.

Dicko... let me tell you of my experience... I hadn't ridden a two wheel anything in something like 43 years when I bought the Swing I have now. I was very uncomfortable even riding alone for a few weeks. My wife was smart enough not to even ask for me to take her on a ride for about a month. When we did decide it was time to begin getting use to her on the scoot, we started in the back yard on very SOFT sod (just in case). I think I had gone about 50 feet or less when I realized that I could not even tell she was behind me. We did talk about the leaning and not making any quick unannounced movements. Then we took a few very short rides around a local road that makes a circle near our house. Very few stops or sharp turns necessary (actually all the turns were right ones which helped too). Then after a few days we made a few longer rides of a few miles around the county. No traffic and very careful. Within a few weeks we could go anywhere. In some ways it is even easier for to ride with her on. She is a really tall girl and can even reach the ground if she has to when we stop at red lights and stop signs. She has learned to lean and knows not to wiggle a lot without telling me. Now she and I ride two up everywhere. She is a warm weather girl, but enjoys riding when the weather is the way it is today. As I have mentioned here before she and I rode over 2,000 miles round trip last October and she is talking about where she wants to go next.
Just take your time. You WILL KNOW when you are ready. There is a lot of different riding environments with freeways, rural, city, gravel and other settings. Ease into each type as you progress with your own experience and your confidence will grow to handle then all.
Next time I come west, maybe we can meet up somewhere.
I was born in Garden City Kansas and got to stop there for a few minutes when Deb and I went to Colorado. First time I had been there in over 65 years...

Well, Gary, if you (or any of you other SWingers) are ever in this area (eastern Kansas/Topeka) don't hesitate to give us a call; just email me and I'll give you the number. We'd love to have you and could provide some lodging too. We've got plenty of room and not that far off the beaten path either.

And thanks to you and to all that have responded to my two-up inquiry. Some very valuable information to be had and pretty much all leads the same direction, so I'm ready to give it a try if I can get the other half to agree.

DickO wrote:

I'm ready to give it a try if I can get the other half to agree.

If you are trying to get the other half to agree (or convinced), it is important to pick a low risk/traffic time, route(s) and place(s) ... to build their confidence. It would not hurt to pick a place where the other half would really enjoy themselves, then (if necessary) you can fake like you are enjoying yourself.

Interesting, I've traveled a lot of miles on motorcycles two-up especially on my Goldwing. One of the things I tell my passengers to do is impersonate a bag of potatoes, ie. don't anticipate or lean. Normally a rider doesn't lean, the bike does. That goes for the rider and pillion passenger. Once a two wheel vehicle gets above a critical speed which in the case of a Silverwing is around five or six mph all steering is done with countersteering. BTW it also applies to a bicycle though at even lower speeds in their case. I've had people argue about that but go try it. Try spinning a bicycle wheel by holding the axle bolts then try turning the wheel to the right. You'll find that due to gyroscopic precession the wheel will exhibit a very strong tendency to lean in the direction of the turn if you are spinning it with the top of the wheel going away from your body. That force is the cause of most of the leaning of a two wheel vehicle. The fact that countersteering is also tending to 'pull the wheels out from under the bike' in an opposite direction of the turn tends to help cause the inward lean.
Which brings me back to the 'sack of potatoes'. If your passenger is a nervous rider and you can feel their unbalance when going in and out of turns ask them to close their eyes and make a turn or two. Normally this will result in a very smooth turn because they won't either try to 'help' the lean or fight it. As for the rider leaning into the turn there's only one reason to do that and that's to prevent the bike from leaning as much. That's why you see motorcycle riders 'knee sliding' in races. By getting their bodies low and inside the turn they are effectively lowering the bike's center of gravity which reduces the amount of lean. Try it yourself, not knee sliding but leaning inward and downward in a tight curve. If you ever get in trouble because of entering a curve in the road too fast and are in danger of crossing the center line lean forward and inward and press harder on the inside grip. Unless you're dragging hard metal the bike will almost always go tighter than you think it will.

Sounds scary "EX" but I'll try a little of that the next time out. Has been a couple of times (one for sure) when maybe I could have used such a maneuver.
Thanks.

Slight error in my previous post. A wheel with it's top edge spinning away from you will precess or lean in the opposite way it's turned. When you turn it to the left it will it will lean right. That's one of the main reasons counter steering work. BTW it's quite surprising how much force precession can generate from a spinning wheel.

We ride two up on occasion. It really is not too terribly difficult to get used to. Mounting and dismounting of the passenger are for me the most difficult moments, just because of the leverage forces at play.

Kim rides so is aware of the inputs she imparts when riding as a passenger. She has a tendency to just sit still, but will at times shift in the saddle - she usually always tells me before she adjusts. No surprises.

Thanks Dale... Need all the info I can get.

DickO, I ride two up almost always. Wouldn't want it any other way. Courted my wife in 68' on a BSA 441 Victor (she claims it only had one wheel) and she has been back there ever since. Although we do a major vacation every year on our older GL1500 Gold Wing pulling a trailer we ride the SW a bunch locally. I have no problem riding the SW two up and with both of us on it we pretty much tax out the intended load capacity. These things would go two up anywhere you wanted. The riding public has been sold on this "bigger is better" theory about motorcycles and over the years I'm probably guilty of this so here I am throwing rocks in a glass house. In our early years we toured just fine on 350cc, 500cc and 650cc motorcycles and although we have gained weight over the years I'm still convinced that you don't "need" a big heavyweight motorcycle to go touring. It wasn't many years ago when a 650 was a big motorcycle. If the Good Lord is willing I would like to take one more big trip (all summer) with the GW because of the camping trailer pulling capabilities and this would be all over the west which we will ride through the only 4 states in the lower 48 that we have not ridden to from our home. I don't know if we will try Alaska or not. This I pray will happen after I retire in two years. After this I intend on downsizing and the GW will go. Don't be concerned about the SW two up riding and you will get used to the passenger and hopefully like us you will become one one the machine and have many great rides and memories. There is a theory that I would like to share, and that is to be a successful long time two up motorcycle rider you have to please the "lady" on the back. The SW has a good enough seat back there to accomplish this. Good Luck and God Bless. Dick

Just to prove what an impact a passenger can have on your bikes handling let me tell you what happened to me on a ride back from a BMW rally .I seemed to be having
trouble maintaining my line in the twistys. I could not hit my apex until I realized
my wife was anticipating the corners and leaning into them. Thats interesting lets see how she does .So for several miles I let her steer .Other than light corrections she was able to drive the bike even in corners.At the next stop we talked about her leaning
and its affects. I told her to relax and stay upright. she made the adjustment
and now I have control of the bike. I will tell you its a hard habit to break as she still will do it here and there. love that gal of mine

I merged these two topics - they had the same title.

The April 2010 issue of Sport Rider had an article titled "The Perfect Pillion". This is a great article and I tried to find it on the web to post here. No luck, so check the magazine rack.

I did find the following link: http://www.lazymotorbike.eu/tips/pillion/ which provides a short instruction.

My 2 bobs worth, I always advise any pillion who is riding for the first time to ALWAYS look over the shoulder of the turn coming up. eg approaching left bend=look over left shoulder. This will always set them up so they dont lean out (DAD) and cause havoc on the road. Simple and very effective.
With total and complete novices I have found that by staying in a particular gear longer than usual at higher rpm gets them used to high engine noises and they then dont seem to get frightened as I eventually go faster. This only takes a couple of miles and it helps them adjust to the surroundings.