Darkside.....Yes or No?

Would you fit a "Darkside" tire on Your Silverwing?? .........What size, and what name brand, why, or why not?? Thanks Jeff.

Jeff,

Counting this thread there are now six threads regarding the "darkside tire".

https://www.silverwing600.com/silver-wing-topics-f3/overweight-and-going-to-darkside-t1249.htm?highlight=darkside

https://www.silverwing600.com/silver-wing-topics-f3/double-darkside-t1391.htm?highlight=darkside

https://www.silverwing600.com/silver-wing-topics-f3/darkside-tyres-t1360.htm?highlight=darkside

https://www.silverwing600.com/silver-wing-topics-f3/insurance-with-darkside-tire-t584.htm?highlight=darkside

One thread even includes a poll:

https://www.silverwing600.com/silver-wing-topics-f3/darkside-tire-poll-t559.htm?highlight=darkside

Even one with the topic "Dark Side"

https://www.silverwing600.com/silver-wing-topics-f3/dark-side-tire-pressure-t568.htm?highlight=dark+side

Probably all the information you are looking for can be found in one of these. You may also note that the respondants are generally a limited group and they always respond to a dark side discussion.

Hi Dale. Thanks much. Hope I'm not asking an old question, but only saw the name Sumitomo, and Mastercraft, and a couple different sizings. At 8k on my 03, it is time to change the rear "compressed air container". I look forward to anyone's "thumbs up, thumbs down", name brand, and sizing,.....then I'm off to the tire dealer, or to an internet site to order....or not. Jeff.

O.K.....How about this......."OEM tire" = Shania.
or
"Darkside tire" = Pat Benatar.



Or how about........."OEM tire" = Fried chicken and beer.
or
"Darkside tire" = Midnight ride to the Pizza joint.

Or, no new tire, stay at home, watch Gilligans Island reruns, Banquet
Pot Pies. ?????? Jeff.

OK....Fried chicken and beer for me!!! Or maybe some catfish!

O.K. Dennis..... Living on the Mississippi, at Quincy Il, I'm with you. Yes we have fried chicken,....but..... do we have catfish.......fillets, chunks, nuggets, fried, baked, broiled,.....everything but soup. Scorecard..........OEM..1.....Darkside....0. Jeff.

Jeff,

Just entering the tire size in the Yahoo search bar returned many choices:

http://shopping.yahoo.com/tires/70--tire-aspect-ratio/165--tire-width/13--wheel-diameter/

Search engines are very useful.

Hi Dale, and your better half too! Excellent! Still relatively new to this "interweb" thing....just clicked on your recommendation, and there they were. Thanks much. Jeff. [ I may have to buy one just to take a good look at it.]

I sent you a PM regarding a car tire that I purchased. It is available for $15 plus shipping. I'll take photos tonight and will attach them in this thread. I do not plan to use it. I'm not opposed, just not necessarily a fan of the car tire on a motorcycle.

Hey Dale. Thanks.......but.......what's a PM.......?????? Ignorance is Bliss ya know! I'm with you on the questionable idea of using a car tire on a two wheeler. I would never consider using one on any of the sport bikes that I have owned. For some reason tho, since I'm pulling the trailer and kayak, and ride so conservatively, I'm accepting this possibility. I must admit tho, that the last time that I reskinned my GSXR, that rear Dunlop was almost flat in the middle, with very similar tread edge and sidewall to the Sumi........so I am curious. Sooooo....what's a PM?...I hope it's Pizza with Mushrooms..... but, if your'e sending it from Huntsville to Quincy Il........what do I tip the driver? Jeff.

Photo of car tire that I have for sale. Will fit the SilverWing. $15 plus shipping.

Hi Dale....thanks for the tire pix, but you may have sent more pix than you thought. I thoroughly enjoyed them tho. Thanks....Jeff. The 051's

Jeff,

A PM is a Private Message, you should have one. Look in the menu bar just under the welcome message at the top of the page.

Wow what difference in size

Hi Dale, Hi Kim. Thank you for the offer, but my son has kindly ordered the Sumi tire for me as a Fathers Day gift. Still not sure if thats the way to go tho. Cheers, Jeff.

Jeff Rosenkranz wrote:

Hi Dale, Hi Kim. Thank you for the offer, but my son has kindly ordered the Sumi tire for me as a Fathers Day gift.

Be careful for first 250-300 miles while the entire tire mold protection is scrubbed from the tire ... especially when wet.

Hi Bill....Thanks for the heads up about the mold protection. Is this something sprayed on the tire? Slippery? From what I understand, you're the "Black Knight of the Darkside".... Well.....you have more experience than anyone else with the Sumi. I dont know where my son ordered mine, did you purchase your's at a tire shop, internet,....how much....Dale had a Sussex that he was kind enough to offer me at a giveaway price, but my son beat him to it.
Question, I recently set my rear shocks at the stiffest possible and I noticed a big improvement in the feel in the front end. If the Sumi tire is taller, how does this translate in front end feel. In any roadracing, the more of the bikes weight bias toward the front wheel equals better handling/braking......are we actually raising the back of the Silverwing......and how much. If these are dumb questions, I apologize, but my sportbike to scooter education continues. Thanks for your reply. Jeff.

Jeff Rosenkranz wrote:

Thanks for the heads up about the mold protection. Is this something sprayed on the tire?

I do not know if it sprayed or coated

Jeff Rosenkranz wrote:

Slippery?

I would not push ( or try to gauge ) the tire in corners till after it is completely scrubbed and be more careful when wet. Once the tire (not just the center ) is completely scrubbed ... there is no issue.

Jeff Rosenkranz wrote:

did you purchase your's at a tire shop, internet,....how much

Internet www.tirerack.com ( do not mention you are putting on a motorcycle) ... you are mounting a tandem axle for hauling gear .

Jeff Rosenkranz wrote:

Question, I recently set my rear shocks at the stiffest possible and I noticed a big improvement in the feel in the front end. If the Sumi tire is taller, how does this translate in front end feel.

Difference between OEM 150/70R13 and Sumitomo 165/70R13 in inches:
...
Overall
Diameter: 0.82

SWing Wheelbase 62.8 inches

If I did
my Trigonometry Oblique Triangle calculation correctly then it
is a 0.9999 degree difference ... which is very small (insignificant).

Hi Bill. Can't thank you enough for your input, and with such detail. I've just clicked on Tirerack.com and noticed that there are different performance and season options with the Sumi tire. Which did you choose for your SW.? My generous son said nothing of choice when he ordered, but didn't say where he ordered........will talk to him this eve. Thanks again Bill. Jeff.

Jeff Rosenkranz wrote:

II've just clicked on Tirerack.com and noticed that there are different performance and season options with the Sumi tire. Which did you choose for your SW.?

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/TireSearchResults.jsp?width=165%2F&ratio=70&diameter=13&startIndex=0&search=true&pagelen=20&pagenum=1&pagemark=1&manufacturer=Sumitomo&x=15&y=11

Hi ya Bill. Thanks again for your help with the Sumitomo for my 03 Silverwing. Could'nt be more pleased. Some highlights...........Easier to get off centerstand because of slight height difference........Looks fantastic, especially with My DennisB hitch, [ I have to learn how to send a pic ]........just knowing that I'm riding on that much tread is a confidence builder........20 to 30k tire life......The FEEL ,to me, is BETTER than the oem. I know that there is this talk about transition from center of the tire, to a lean/turning part of the tread. Absolutely no such thing. When you roll into your turn/lean, thats what she does, and without hesitation or glitch. Just a nice smooth arc. The sound.....I dont really know what it is, but the bike sounds better. The combination of the exhaust, and that Sumi on the pavement is music to my ears. [ It's not my imagination, there is a difference]. I would compare it to the difference between ShaniaB Twains first album,[oem tire] and her last [ the Sumi]..... a little more Rock and Roll. Hunting Lake Barbecue date to be announced soon.......I bought a lottery ticket tonight, and the first thing I'm going to do is build a cabin for the Hosts of our Summertime Silverwing Tour Destination. Jeff.

Sweet! u guys are definitely selling me on a darkside tire once my Diablo fades... I searched tire rack but only found one tire -- not sure what options were available to you , Jeff? I also noted that the tire is 165/70 whereas my Diablos are 150/70... is that more of an issue of availability or any reason the tire size is different?

Good one Hammy. I hope Bill catches your question and can answer this for you. I followed his lead on the tire size, and the classification, [ all weather etc..]. The tire shop that I had mount the tire is a Sumi dealer, but when I asked them to get me this particular size, they searched, and even called me back, and said that they had no access to this size. But, they would be more than happy to mount it for me if I could get it from Tire Rack. Two days from order to front door.
Cant wait to see your aux gas tank project........ when you get it, post a pic.
Oh,.....used to get a little bar shake when chopping the throttle at 35mph or so.........eeeeeez gone........muy macho Sumi has silenced the shakes. Jeff.

Hammy wrote:

I also noted that the tire is 165/70 whereas my Diablos are 150/70... is that more of an issue of availability or any reason the tire size is different?

Here is the tire calculator difference ( http://www.discounttire.com/dtcs/infoTireMath.dos )

OEM 150/70R13 in inches:
Sidewall Height: 4.13
Section Width: 5.91
Overall Diameter: 21.27
Circumference: 66.81
Revs per mile: 948.3

Sumitomo 165/70R13 in inches:
Sidewall Height: 4.55
Section Width: 6.5
Overall Diameter: 22.09
Circumference: 69.41
Revs per mile: 912.81

Difference between OEM 150/70R13 and Sumitomo 165/70R13 in inches:
Sidewall Height: 0.42
Section Width: 0.59
Overall Diameter: 0.82
Circumference: 2.6
Revs per mile: -39.49 (-3.742% difference)

There were no tires for 150/70-R13. W1ngman searched for alternative sizes, he found the Sumitomo which has good characteristics great tirewear and traction and good temperature rating ... it also has a nice rounded profile.

Other tires have been found with the same size, though they have not come close to the Sumitomo ratings.

Hi Bill. Thanks for your help. Ya know, there are similarities between these Sumi's and us barbecue loving "boomers".........just like you said, " nice rounded profile ". It's not the beer, it's the barbecue..........well maybe it's both. Roll on....Jeff.

Well, it's the 600 mile mark, and my Silverwing has warmed and welcomed the Sumi. I think that maybe there was a little break in period, as the Sumitomo feels even better than it did when first road tested. At 0 miles I was o.k. with finding fault without prejudice and willing to call off the project and chalk one up to experience. BUT.......Im a Crappy Hamper........uh.......a Happy Camper.........Im still haunted by my English teacher, Sister Cratchit and the Nuns at the Holy School of Perpetual Guilt. Big thumbs up from me for the Sumi! Jeff.

Don't want to upset anybody----but Car rims and mc/scooter rims are different. I believe there is SAE paper on this-- how about total loss of air at 60 mph? tubeless

Scooters are limited enough in their handling----why hinder them with tire not designed for leaning?

Nobody has ever come with closed circuit test and compared lap times, scooter tire to rear car tire.


I know car tires are cheaper and last longer. But it is worth one get off? I have used car tires on bikes....but with special rim (MZ 15" rear with 2CV tire) advantage was long tire life....but only usable with sidecar set up. Bike was near unrideable solo with car tire and against the law in Germany.

John Grinsel

Thanks for your info John. This gives me more to study, and consider in this project. Im with you on the possibles..... as an aging sportbike rider I have retired my knee pucks, and now enjoy my 45mph rides towing my kayak. I had to try this combination on what I now consider my SUV.....Silverwing Utility Vehicle.
Here's my next project.....My 50 mpg, 50 hp Geo Yak hauler is due for some new rubber. Since it handles like a go cart, should I go for a set of sticky Diablo Silverwing 13's? A car on motorcycle tires????? I have got to quit eating my own cooking. Take care John....Jeff.

Jeff Rosenkranz wrote:

Would you fit a "Darkside" tire on Your Silverwing?? .........What size, and what name brand, why, or why not?? Thanks Jeff.

Just did. See my post under Maint.

Gotcha Slick!! I Read about your muy macho Sumi. Keep us posted on your likes and dislikes, tire pressure experiments, suggestions....etc. This is kind of new territory for most of us, and who knows what's next? I had a well seasoned rider pilot my Silverwing while I rode along side and behind. I didn't see any sidewall flex with 30lbs of pressure even in some pretty spirited cornering. No deflection that I noticed. Well....good luck, and post your results. Take care, Jeff.

There are videos on this site and more on the right column... enough to learn all about flexing and traction questions you might have. They report ,,,, you decide....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gZKhoFbL7Fo

Hi OP..........now thats an eye opener!.....Gotta go back and watch it again, as the first time thru, I was just waiting for the camcorder to meet its maker. Thanks much OP, and hope you're enjoying the Arkansas hills and dales. I'm going to Google Earth Rison. Jeff.

OP.....the video of that Dunlop on that two wheeler is worth watching. Thanks much. Rison looks like the perfect place to raise a family. I cant believe how good Google Earth is. OP......are those hog confinements just downwind of town??????? We have many around Quincy, and at certain times it gets a little.......uh..........Websters dictionary........uh.......Odiferous!.........Is that a word for " Man that stinks"? Jeff.

I agree cars tire last a long time on bikes....


But who is considering difference in rim design between car and mc wheels? Sudden air loss ? I know hasn't happened or at least no-one who had it speaks up. Dead?

Last and I will be quiet.----car tires are different compound=hard. What happens in wet/cold? East Germany used to have some wonderful hard bike compound tires-pneu-mat(sp?) they wore like iron----not much fun on block pave or wet or cold. Lasted quite awhile on MZ two stroke sidecar outfits. I had some what turned out to be hard compound AVON tires on my Concours----great at 85 degrees two up, tires were hot. At 35-40, wet cold really bad.Hard too keep bike going upright, straight line. Not fun.

I have yet to hear from any body who has run up big miles on car tires---like 100-150,000 miles and their experiences. They are the ones who might have something to relay.


John Grinsel

john grinsel wrote:

I have yet to hear from any body who has run up big miles on car tires---like 100-150,000 miles and their experiences. They are the ones who might have something to relay.

One of the earliest (that I've found on the Internet) users of a Darkside rear tire has a great site: http://lifeisaroad.com/stories/2004/10/27/theDarkSide.html

He has well over 100K miles running on darkside tires. There is an entire section of the Goldwing riders forum devoted to people who have been, and are using darkside tires. I'm certain they have amassed far in excess of 100K miles, maybe millions of miles, on their darkside tires.

Having said that, if you don't want to use one, that's cool. I don't have one on my machine either. I don't ride enough distance to make it worth the trouble of finding someone to mount it, and I'm happy w/the ride I have now. If I ever need to ride 10K miles on one trip, I would consider installing one for sure...

Hi John.....Hi Sween. No matter what.....lets keep talking and sharing what we know, and what we think. Theres nothing better than putting aside what we believe and accept.........and digging in with a little critical thinking. Cant wait to find out what's around the corner!..........Jeff.

john grinsel wrote:

But who is considering difference in rim design between car and mc wheels?

The tire rim design is round and designed to hold a round tire.

The outside width of the rear rim is 5.093" well within the Sumitomo specification of Rim Width Range: 4-5.5".

The Sumitomo car tire consistentlyhas less air loss then the OEM Bridgestone ... so the tire/rim seal is doing better than the original OEM Bridgestones.

john grinsel wrote:

Sudden air loss ? I know hasn't happened or at least no-one who had it speaks up. Dead?

My first Darskide tire was replaced (3,000+ miles) due to a 3/4" open gash from unknown road debris that went through the ENTIRE tire/tread and cutting radial cord(s) while in the middle of a 90 degree. I traveled 3 miles at 65-70 MPH with no problems or signs or trouble ... there was not a single sign of trouble. The last mile was morning traffic which was 0-20 MPH.

john grinsel wrote:

Last and I will be quiet.----car tires are different compound=hard.

You are espousing incorrect facts.

There is a measurement device device called a Durometer which measures the hardness of tires. The car tire was found to be equal to high performance motorcycle tires and softer than normal motorcycle tires.

john grinsel wrote:

What happens in wet/cold?

The Sumitomo has handled flooded roads better the the front tire and original OEM Bridgeston rear tires.

No problems or difference in cold weather.

Two points:


#1 if car tires are so great why don't road racers use them? or why aren't they OEM ?

#2 There is difference in rim bead design between car and bike. I believe SAE paper was done on it.


My true feeling is car tires users on bikes may not be able to feel differences in handling/behavior of bike.

Tires very sensitive issue----I suffered 80mph dry cornering slide---some going too fast, most tire. changed from OEM Conti to Japanese Dunlop K-70? on rear of my then new BMW R60/6----Hard compound tire=breakaway slide----could have killed me. Bike or I did not go down but a thrill to last lifetime. Is car tire on scooter maybe going to do same thing. Anybody taken rear car tire scooter to track day?


John Grinsel

honda_silver wrote:

The tire rim design is round and designed to hold a round tire.

The outside width of the rear rim is 5.093" well within the Sumitomo specification of Rim Width Range: 4-5.5".

As I understood John's assertion about the wheel design - he was referring to the bead seat of the rim relative to the bead of the tire. Is there a difference between the MC tire and the car tire bead? Seems as though there is, I don't know, but will check when I get home.

honda_silver wrote:

The Sumitomo car tire consistentlyhas less air loss then the OEM Bridgestone ... so the tire/rim seal is doing better than the original OEM Bridgestones.

Given that you have experienced less air loss - I don't know if that proves that the tire/wheel seal (bead seal) is better. The tires are constructed differently - from more plies to different construction and compounds. These variables may also be a factor or could be contributing factors resulting in you experiencing less air loss.

honda_silver wrote:

The Sumitomo has handled flooded roads better the the front tire and original OEM Bridgeston rear tires.

No problems or difference in cold weather.

I'd dump that front tire and replace it with a skinny car tire if it is so unsafe... Just kidding Bill, this is a surprisingly emotionally charged issue.

SUV Update. Silverwing Utility Vehicle that is. Riding to work this morning.......there it was. I am the caretaker of a campus, and on lot #2 an 18 foot branch was taunting me. Well, could get the tractor and trailer, or tractor and chain..........whats that Mr Sumi?.....theres a tiedown under the seat you say?.......Thats crazy. " But schools in and some youngster could trip on that toothpick and scuff their $300 sneakers"." Do you want to talk to Suzy's mom and her lawyer and probably her therapist? O.K. Muy Macho Sumi.....we will save the children from this evil limb from Hell. Towed 'er across two parking lots, and received the Key to the City. I wonder if Sumitomo makes a mud and snow tire?
Jeff.

No, but Pirreli does. I contemplated getting one when I added the Danson kit, but used a same size (165/65 radial) Bridgestone.

jdeereanton wrote:

Given that you have experienced less air loss - I don't know if that proves that the tire/wheel seal (bead seal) is better. The tires are constructed differently - from more plies to different construction and compounds. These variables may also be a factor or could be contributing factors resulting in you experiencing less air loss.

That was exactly the same arguments years ago when the new fangle "radial tire" versus the old bias-ply tires. Today most tires are radial.

jdeereanton wrote:

honda_silver wrote:

The Sumitomo has handled flooded roads better the the front tire and original OEM Bridgeston rear tires.

No problems or difference in cold weather.

I'd dump that front tire and replace it with a skinny car tire if it is so unsafe...

If I find a front darkside tire that I like .... I may try it.

honda_silver wrote:

jdeereanton wrote:

Given that you have experienced less air loss - I don't know if that proves that the tire/wheel seal (bead seal) is better. The tires are constructed differently - from more plies to different construction and compounds. These variables may also be a factor or could be contributing factors resulting in you experiencing less air loss.

That was exactly the same arguments years ago when the new fangle "radial tire" versus the old bias-ply tires. Today most tires are radial.

Well.... I wasn't really expecting an answer, so imagine how much I was not expecting a non-answer.

Trees have leaves but not the conifers????

I'd guess that when you changed the tire you may also have changed the valve stem. Would that have an impact on the lack of air pressure loss?

We switched to a different brand of rear tire (MC) and it holds better pressure than the previous brand. Is it the tire? The valve stem? The install? A blanket statement that dismisses other factors or simply does not take them into account is not a valid statement.

As such, I don't think it is possible to simply say that the car tire bead seats better and for proof you offer up the anecdotal evidence that you don't have to fill it as often. I'm just saying. It is possible, I'd just rather have all the information or at least some quantification.

john grinsel wrote:

#1 if car tires are so great why don't road racers use them? or why aren't they OEM ?

Rear darkside tire are OEM on some models of Boss Hoss and some custom motorcycles.

john grinsel wrote:

My true feeling is car tires users on bikes may not be able to feel differences in handling/behavior of bike.

My answers are based on experience not "feeling".

john grinsel wrote:

Tires very sensitive issue----I suffered 80mph dry cornering slide---some going too fast, most tire. changed from OEM Conti to Japanese Dunlop K-70? on rear of my then new BMW R60/6----Hard compound tire=breakaway slide----could have killed me.

Use a softer compound tire .. a darkside tire

john grinsel wrote:

Bike or I did not go down but a thrill to last lifetime. Is car tire on scooter maybe going to do same thing.

The darkside tire has save me from numerous thrills that would have occurred with normal motorcycle tires.

1) One day the maintenance staff packed sand onto decorative pavement blocks ... the sand matched the color of the blocks and the excess sand was not removed. When I came out of the parking garage in the middle of my 90 degree turn to exit ... the front wheel started sliding out and the rear darkside tire following the exact same did not slide out.

2) I found the Darkside tire to be better on the worst tar strips material. There were some HORRIBLE and dangerous tar snakes from the white road perimeter paint while zig-zagging across the construction zones. The front tire would slide and the rear darkside tire was very stable.

3) Texas does not always post signs when they groove their pavement ... even at dangerous spots like the middle of a turns at posted curve speed limits.. The original OEM Bridgestone would track in the "v-groove". The darkside tire greatly reduced the "tracking".

So the darkside tire has helped prevent situations.

john grinsel wrote:

Anybody taken rear car tire scooter to track day?

I do not care one ioata about track time. So no ... I am not going to. Some insurance companies are removing "coverage" while motorcycles are at a track.

Jeff Rosenkranz wrote:

Would you fit a "Darkside" tire on Your Silverwing?? .........What size, and what name brand, why, or why not?? Thanks Jeff.

Sorry - one more thing - after much research, the Sumitomo HTR T4 is the most technologically advanced tire I found on the market today. It seems to be the choice of 50+ % of the riders I viewed. It was my choice, and except the the mounting, is a WONDERFUL choice for a quality "darkside" tire.

Car tire may have more contact patch in straight up straight forward situation----but bikes are designed to lean.....including accident avoidance maneuvers.


Does larger contact patch effect interconnected brake ratios----think it was designed with specific traction amounts in mind? Remember front is doing about 70%of the work in braking...maybe more as you add front yourself in linked system.Hard to mount-----didn't everybody mount their own tires? I heard in addition to getting bead to seat, some stretching required to get bead over rim.?

This talk of car tires will never end---I really don't think the people who are so pro car tire have #1 really ridden a lot in their life (most here seem to be old) and presently don't do lots of riding----if car tire can last 30,000 miles---you would need one at least every 18 months, if your are doing serious riding. Nor interested in Track Days or possible training to improve skills.

Any Iron Butt people use car tires? When I saw Ed Otto finish Iron Butt in UT on Helix, he had scooter tires.


John Grinsel

Gosh John.....I had a Sumitomo dealer mount mine. They were nice folks. Sure they had to stretch it over the rim. I wouldnt want to ride anything that wasn't clinched. I have ridden a lot.......I have owned 28 motorcycles and I sure hope to add more in the future. I have had track time. Participated in the Yamaha YSR series.....learned how to drag my knees and almost got to the magic elbow touchdown. Also had track time on my dirt bikes. But never had the chance to do any laps with most of my bikes. Really didn't want to ride my old BMW or my c70 Honda Passport in that environment. And OLD.....did you really say OLD.......why yes I am. BUT......I still walk, kayak, bicycle and canoe. And I'm still pretty good at roller skating and not to shabby on a skateboard. Did you really say Old??? Yes....but wise also. Jeff

Wait......I need to add to that. Wise.....but not to smart. For the love of Pete.....I have a Tire on the back of my Honda Silverwing that would fit on a Ford Escort......I have got to get more fiber in my diet. Nursey Cratchit......can I have more prunes......No, No,......not the tube.....AHHHH!!!!! Jeff. Are there any Silverwing owners interested in or have actually ridden at 8 or 9/10ths on a track......??????........with car parts on their SW's??? Yes Nursey Cratchit.....the Orange Metamucil will be just fine!!

john grinsel wrote:

-----didn't everybody mount their own tires?

I don't mount my own tires. That's why tire shops exist. The folks I work for provide a full engineering solution, but none of the owners are engineers. I don't need to know how or even do the task if my good friend the wallet can do it for me.

john grinsel wrote:

This talk of car tires will never end---

Sadly this is a true statement.

john grinsel wrote:

---I really don't think the people who are so pro car tire have #1 really ridden a lot in their life (most here seem to be old) and presently don't do lots of riding----

Not true John, Bill has many many miles (40,000?) on a car tire. "Riding a lot" is very subjective. If we are going to willy nilly proclaim that people are not allowed to have comments because of some arbitrary standard(s) set by a single individual - I'd like to know where I apply for that job.

john grinsel wrote:

----if car tire can last 30,000 miles---you would need one at least every 18 months, if your are doing serious riding.

You'll need a new car tire once every 3 months if you're a real rider!

Hey Jeff,

What a good life!!! Here comes Nursey Cratchit.....with the Orange Metamucil....A DOUBLE FOR EVERYONE!!!!!