Burning the Koran - Mosque in New York

As you say this section is for none scooter topics, may i be allowed a comment on the proposal to build a mosque at ground Zero. If you allow this to go ahead it will be a constant reminder to the Muslims of how weak the west is, and will encourage, not deter, Militant muslims. I say this because my nephew has just died in hospital after being shot in Afganistan. I am glad in a way that we are not allowed guns in the UK as you are in USA, otherwise i can tell you their would be a few dead muslims in England right now. I appeal to anyone with influence to stop this stupid idea. We in the UK are now overrun by asians we did not stop them when we had the chance don't make the same mistake we did.

Actually, I believe the truth to be quite the opposite. Allowing religious believers to practice their beliefs is on of the tenets of our constitution, and indeed one of the primary reasons our bass-ackwards country came to be. As much as pretty much all relegions drive me nuts, they've got every right to build their mosques, synagogues, churches, and temples wherever local zoning allows.

While I'm sorry you seem to hold all members of a particular religion somehow responsible for your nephew's death, the fact of the matter is 99.9999999999999999999% of them had nothing to do with his tragic loss, and to somehow hold the rest of them accountable, and claim that opening a church is an insult is, well... ridiculous on it's face to say the least.

Dodgy discussion.
I have my views; suffice it to say I'm glad I won't be around in 30 years' time and read the quotation in my signature.

Well, I do believe that here in the USA we tout religious freedom, and I agree 100%. Most of my ancestors came to this country BECAUSE of the freedom of religion. Sweendog is right, it's a very small percentage of Muslims that are radical, and about the same number of Christians give us a bad name. Our constitution says that they have every right to build their mosque where ever they want. So, Old Limey, would you be against a Baptist church being built near the site?

Oh No............They are going to discuss religion on Silverwing600.com. I'm heading for the kayaking website before the Inquisition begins. Somebody let me know when it's safe to come back. Jeff.

One party states that because it has the right, it must.
It is agreed that the other party also has the right but it mustn't and is the subject of violent protests even though it hasn't.

Dual standards.

To compare Islam with Christianity is also very dodgy.
'Moderation' does not come into it.
The aim of one is to convert only by persuasion, the other by persuasion but if that fails, by force.
It has nothing to do with nice people or nasty people - it is the purpose of the Creed.

It is actually too late - I repeat; I am glad I won't be around in 30 years' time.

Mike, I am extremely sorry that your nephew lost his life. You and I agree with the nature of the religion of the Muslims. I know trying to discuss it here on this forum is not going to help. As you can see from the early reaction here there is going to be very strong feelings for both views. A lot of Americans believe that what has happened in the rest of the world can't happen here because we are Americans and we can all just hold hands with the rest of the world and sing cumb by yah (sp). I am tempted to go the discussion route here, but will not to keep from stirring up some bad stuff. Just let me add my support to what you have expressed and again I regret that your family has suffered the lost of a loved one. My prayers are with you and your family. God bless you.

Quote: "The aim of one is to convert only by persuasion, the other by persuasion but if that fails, by force."

Run that one by our Native Americans and see what they remember.

I thought we were talking about the present and future.
Lots of dispicable things happened in the past of which many nations should be ashamed.
Future generations will live to regret our complacency in the face of the threat of Global Domination of a kind never seen before; that is if there is any documentation of 'now' left to study.

Good point thomphoto... I would love to see what the Native Americans remember about their treatment by Christians. I don't know many Indians personally. I do know that there are Christian groups that make mission trips to their areas. Never seen or heard of one single one that rejected the Gospel being stoned or having their throats cut. But that is just me.

I really get a little riled up when someone claims no difference in Christians or Muslims. Not even close. Sure there are some nice Muslims just like there are some bad Christians. I am a good example of a not so good Christian. But the message of the two groups are not comparable.

So, if you want to continue to bash Mike for his views, find another line of argument. I have probably said too much already, so I will not return to this thread again.

I saw the headline and I had to read the thread. Jeff is probably the wisest of the bunch here, running off to the kayaking website until this is all over and done with; unfortunately I'm not as wise as he.

I'm sure a lot of you know what they say about opinions, they are like assholes, everyone has one and they all stink. Well, without being asked, I'm going to offer my opinion.

Something else I was told once, is never to discuss politics or religion unless you are both of the same belief. (Why is it, I can never learn?)

As I see it, this topic is all about politics and they are using religion to achieve their political agenda.

I'm sorry to hear about your nephew, he has given the ultimate sacrifice, and I also know that no words offered here are going to ease your pain. My sympathies are with you.

Forgive my ignorance, I don't know if they still use conscription in the UK, the US stopped this back in the 70's. My self, I volunteered and served 12.5 years with the USAF. I can get very emotional when I think about and discuss what the patriots of this country have done for us over the years. I was attending the NCO academy and as part of that, we were required to be in uniform and taken to DC on Memorial Day, the year they dedicated the statue of the 3 soldiers from Viet Nam. I found it difficult, through out that day, not to cry. I volunteered, because I felt I owed a debt to those that came before me and that what this Country offers, does not come cheaply.

I'm originally from Rhode Island. RI was founded by Roger Williams. He left the Massachusetts Bay Colony to avoid religious persecution. (Funny, the folks that founded MA, left Europe for the same reason, how quickly they forget.)
When the founding fathers of this country finished writing the Constitution, they said "Ooops, we forgot some stuff" so they added "The Bill of Rights". These are the first 10 amendments to the Constitution, one of them being freedom of religion.

I've never read the Koran, so I don't know what it says, my only knowledge in this area is what I get from the media, and I know that is biased. I know that Islam spread across northern Africa, essentially it was convert or die. I also know that the troubles between Christians and Muslims began with the Crusades. I think all this came about because people were running around saying "God has told me to kill you, because you don't think and believe the way I do." In my mind, I find it extremely difficult to believe God wants me running around killing people, particularly because they don't agree with me. (A few years back I was watching a program about the goings on in Northern Ireland. They interviewed a couple of kids, they were about 9 years old. At this point I can't remember if they were Catholic or Protestant, but it really doesn't matter, so I'll tell the story one way, when it might have been the other. The newsman asked the little Protestant boy, why he was killing the Catholic boys. The look on his face was incredulous that such a question could even be asked and his answer, was spoken in a tone that indicated this reason covered everything and nothing more need to be said, his answer was "Because they're Catholics".

I do not think that building a mosque in NYC, in this location is a prudent thing to do. I also believe that the folks that claim to be planing this, ARE doing it for entirely political reasons, reasons I disagree with.

HOWEVER, I will defend their right to do so. As soon as those rights are no longer defended, they will quickly be gone. Once some of the rights are eroded, it will not be long before others follow.

Should a Baptist minister be burning a Koran? My opinion is that this guy may be pretty stupid to do so, on the other hand, he hasn't burnt it yet and look how well his opinion has been expressed and the attention it has received.

Bill

Old Limey I'm very sorry to hear of the death of your nephew. Any loss is tragic.

However I do believe a bike/scooter forum is not the platform to discuss religeous and political views. Especially of another country.

I served in the military, I have friends still serving and think of them daily. I have religious views, albeit confusing, I have views on politics but they are mine.

Let us keep the forum politics and religion free and stick to our passion of all things Silverwing.

Thanks Doug.

i read in the News this evening that Terry Jones has backed down.
Can we expect the same of those who want to build the mosque?

There is no obligation for anyone to read this thread but.....I say again: read the quotation in my signature.

Damm, I should have kept my trap shut on this subject. I didn't mean to offend anyone, sorry if I have. I'm just saying that I will defend our Constitution to the end, as millions of servicemen have, and one of the most important parts of that Constitution is freedom of religion and freedom from religion if I choose. The minute we give up that, or any of the freedoms granted by the Constitution, we will be in deep dodo. We can't pick and choose which we support. With that I hereby get off the soapbox, and get on my scoot.

Sorry for your lose of your nephew. Ole Limey.

MaxB

the germans might as well BUILD A STATUE OF HITLER IN THE MIDDEL OF ISREAL . THEM PEOPLE GOT A 12 MILE LONG ISLAND TO BUILD THAT THING ON WHY PUT IT WHERE THERE KIND DESTROYED IT????????????? SAD THIS COUNTRY AND LAIM SO CALLED PERESEDENT WOULD EVEN CONCIDER THIS. I tell you what I know first hand that the NY unions wont let none of there men help build it HELL MOST OF THERE MEN HAD TO DEMOLISH WHAT WAS LEFT 9 YEARS AGO LET ALONE PULL SCRAPS OF BODY PARTS OUT OF MILLIONS OF TONS OF DEBREE AND MANY WHO HAVE WORKED THERE 9 YEARS AGO DIED OR ARE DYEING OF TERMINAL SICKNESSES OR CANCER FROM THE BUILDING DEBREES. , and if them people try and build trust me theres gonna be hell to pay ill tell yous this much. The only unions that can build in NYC would be the ones who would be allowed to build it and I already herd THEY WANT NO PART OF IT!!!!!!!!!!! and if its tryed?? god help those that will try and build it. Scab labor and non unions in NYC WILL NEVER BE

Hey guys........How are we doing? Oh boy,.......well,...... back to Paddling.net. Jeff.

I wish people wouldn't waste money on churches or mosques or any other religious buildings.

Unfortunately for me, this is a FREE COUNTRY and people can build whatever they want wherever they want, so long as it is safe.

I value my freedom, and that means EVERYONE ELSE GETS THEIRS TOO.

If you don't want a mosque built somewhere because you don't like or trust muslims, then that's your problem, because you live in a country that's supposed to be FREE.

Now start acting like you do and start standing up for the rights of people who have opinions that differ from yours. It's a critical part of the system.

And MikeO I agree with your signature completely.

But to me it means that the evil is not defending the rights of people you disagree with.

Freedom does not mean "you have rights if you agree with me."

If you don't defend the freedoms of those with different political or religious beliefs than yours, then freedom will die and evil will win.

I am surprised the moderators did not lock this thread.

Hi Bill..........You know, kayakers are a good bunch. "Whats that you're putting in the water there Sam?......an Old Town Castine?......Wow......good on ya.....enjoy the Lake." "Yeah......and that Perception Tribe of yours looks like a great way to soak up some sun.".............and now.........back to the Inquisition. Jeff.

Jeff,

You wouldn't happen to be a Monty Python fan would you?

No one expects the Spanish Inquisition.

Bill......"If you do not confess.......I will have Cardinal Biggles torture you.......by making you sit...............ON THE COMFY CHAIR!!!!.......Jeff.

Our chief weapon is surprise! Surprise and fear! ...wait.
Our two, TWO chief weapons are surprise, fear, and a fanatical devotion to the Pope! ...wait...

honda_silver wrote:

I am surprised the moderators did not lock this thread.

Bill,

I know this is a touchy subject and I'm very surprised, but pleased, that no one has gotten out of hand yet. I don't see a problem with letting it keep running if it doesn't get out of hand.

All,

If others here think it should be locked please say something but I am really not the type to "censor" things, as long as we keep things civil.

I'm glad the preacher isn't going to burn the Koran just out of respect for those who follow it. Just like I don't like those burning the bible or or the flag, I don't think anyone should disrespect others either.

I also don't agree with building the Mosque at the site where they want to build it. Move it a few blocks away and everyone is happy. Again, I just think that those who want to build it should also respect those that object to where they want to build it. After all there was a church that was destroyed at 9-11 and they aren't being allowed to re-build, so why let someone just come in and build. If they won't let a church re-build why do they allow a Mosque to build. Both of these subjects are very touchy and all of us should take a step back and re-think how others feel.

Just my opinion though.

Bill,

Keep in mined that all the site Administrators here, are ex-military personnel and have sworn to give our lives, if needed, to protect your rights and freedoms. Two of these rights are Freedom of speech and the other is freedom of religion.

I would give anything to be 21 years old again and back in the Army, and be serving in Afghanistan, if I only could. Hunting down those cowardly dogs that have murdered so many good people.... Alas...I'm 60 years old now and leave the fighting to the younger Soldiers and Marines.... But I still wish I could be there to fight.

Now, I stand in PGR flag lines to support the effort of our brave men and women in uniform.

Old Limey, let me add my condolences to you and your entire family The loss of the young is the true tragedy of war. I just want to honor your nephew and appreciate what he and so many others do. I find it interesting that the owner of the proposed mosque site would be willing to sell it to someone else so the mosque wouldn't get built and the so called "minister" just might change his mind now that he's gotten his fifteen minutes. I'm sure glad these characters weren't in command of D-day. Maybe we could get Jeff to find us a deal on kayaks and we could give them a ride over Niagra Falls. Nah, wouldn't want to pollute the river. Again, thank you to your nephew and condolonces to your family and friends.

I've been able to express my views and answer/challenge (not sure of the right word) those of others; I'm grateful for that.

If one was prevented from sensible debate, argument even, one would never think about or modify one's opinions.

As far as I'm concerned, friends here are just that, possibly even better friends as I know them better than I did before.

transam86 wrote:

the germans might as well BUILD A STATUE OF HITLER IN THE MIDDEL OF ISREAL .

This is completely a false analogy. Hitler had everything to do with the extermination of millions of Jews, and others; whereas the Muslim religion as a whole had basically nothing to do with the savagery of 9/11. No one is talking about putting a statue of Osama Bin Laden at ground zero.

The people that are trying to drum-up outrage, and create nationalistic fervor are trying to create a false-link between an entire religion and a few thousand wing-nuts.
(Seriously, the best, and highest count of Al Queda members was in the low thousands, something like 3-4, max.)

There is nothing more inherently evil about Muslims, Christians, Jews, Hindus, or Buddhists. They're all adherents to some form or another of religion. Pick any religion, and I'll be happy to point out the outrages bits, the ridiculous bits, and the offensive bits. Every religion can be twisted to take offense, demonize, and otherwise paint "the other" with a broad-brush of hatred and mistrust.

The simple fact is, there are good people, and there are bad people. Both kinds of people come in every color, nationality, and religion. Bad people throughout all recorded history have used religion as an reason to commit atrocity after atrocity. Does that mean we shouldn't allow any religion?

The beauty of a society based on secular law, rather than religious belief, is that it not only let's us judge people by their actions, rather than their religious upbringing, it demands it.

If you don't like the Muslim faith, or any faith for that matter, the best course of action is to not follow it.

Sweendog,

I agree with everything you said...

If you really want to win this...throw your hatred and disrespect in the correct direction, and that's toward those cowardly bastards "The Taliban". These people, are the real enemy of all the free people of the WORLD.

Support the brave men and women fighting to rid the earth of this horrible group of people.

We are at war....Right now....Please support our troops by joining the PGR and other fine organizations.

Show that you support them...

Iam sorry for the upset I have caused. I have calmed down
a little now.Most of you are correct in your points of view
I thank those of you for your understandig of my frame
of mind. You are quite right this is not the place for such
debates. I had no other way to speak to Americans.

Old Limey,

Speaking personally for myself, I don't think you have anything to apologize for. When we are hurting, sometimes we can do irrational things, not to say you were/are irrational. Pain SUCKS, it hurts, its not fun. I think you reached out to some friends and they responded to your request. Its been said many times in the past, Freedom is not FREE. There is a cost. My opinion is that there are far too many people that don't recognize the cost involved, and if they were asked to pay that price, I don't think they'd be willing to. Your nephew, was willing to pay. As a result of his efforts, and the efforts of others that have also been willing to pay, we have a forum like this where we can speak openly. The other people also have the ability to express their opinions. Maybe someday, those that don't, will recognize cost and they just might begin to show some appreciation.

Once again, my sympathies are with you.
Bill

Old Limey wrote:

Iam sorry for the upset I have caused. I have calmed down
a little now.

No upset caused here, pal. We all feel for your loss, and are pulling for you and your family.

Take care, ride safe.

Bill

Hey Old Limey you haven't upset any one. We have all been touched in some way by this tragic war being fought in Afghanistan.

I work alongside the UK military right now and I hate it when the dreaded message comes in that another casualty signal has been received. Then that night it will be announced on the news. So sad.

Like Dennis said the Taliban are leading the trouble out there and our brave lads and lasses are over there doing an excellent job of trying to rid this world of these bad people. (Tamed down version). The down side as you are feeling is the pain and suffering when a family member dies doing what he/she joined our brave armed forces to do. Keep the planet a safer place to live.

It's an old cliche, but 'it helps to talk'.