V-matic indicator light

I have a 2002 Silverwing that the V-matic light comes on. When I take it to the service dept, they just reset it and state nothing is wrong.

Any ideas on why it is doing this? Is it a problem?

pvretis wrote:

I have a 2002 Silverwing that the V-matic light comes on. When I take it to the service dept, they just reset it and state nothing is wrong.

Any ideas on why it is doing this? Is it a problem?

Are you using the J Costa variator?

If you are at a multiple of 16,000 miles, that is normal. It is just a reminder to have the belt changed. Nothing unusual about resetting it. I have read posts of folks that wait for many many miles before changing. I had my changed at 16,000, but won't hurt to go longer. Light means nothing else. Repeat... light is a mileage alert indicator only. Every 16,000 miles it is going to come on. Resetting is simple and you can make up your own mind about changing.

BTW.. J-Costa variator is probably a superior feature. However, I am certain your V-Light is going to relight itself with or without a J-Costa. Someone please advise me if I have been misinformed.

Hi Gary,
Your absulotly.....RIGHT! 16,000 miles every time and then a reset. It's just the program on the scooters e-prom chip.

DennisB :D

I have a J. Costa and it has come on a couple of times, but only when I was going up a steeper hill 2 up. I just reset the light at the next stop and there was no difference in how the bike ran. I wounldn't worry about it too much though.

About the V light coming on.......

I've had this too, although only after having the J Costa installed. My belt is OK still good for another five thousand miles or so. The light coming on has not been a problem, there has been no noticeable degradation in performance, scoot still matches the same revs to speed etc.... It doesn't seem to matter how you ride the scoot, hard or gentle, the light just comes on anyway... So, I've just reset the light each time. (With the ignition off, push in the two black odometer buttons, and keep them pressed in.. Switch on the ignition, wait a few seconds and the V light starts to flash, take fingers off the buttons and all is done, V light is reset)

I've read on a different forum it has been suggested the ECM aswell as being programmed to light the V-light after 16,000 miles, will also light the V-light if there is anything odd in the transmission, for example Engine revving higher than usual for a given speed. This does tie in with the J costa as it causes the engine to rev slighlty higher at lower speeds and after 70mph, vice versa.

This would also mean that if the V-light keeps coming on and more and more frequently, (rather than every now and then) chances are the belt is a bit too worn and needs a replacement

I'm now a covert. I always believed that the V light was a belt reminder only. Wrong.

Three days ago I had one of those horrible moments when you know you should check something and for some reason, unknown to mankind, you don't. Whilst carrying out some inspection and cleaning I removed my primary variator very carefully and took off the ramp plate. Then, some supernatural force knocked my elbow and one of the sliders popped out from its home and landed flat on top of the other sliders. WITHOUT CHECKING I toppled the dislodged slider back into its place in the same position I had ASSUMED it had come from.

I then set off on a 100 mile ride and after about 50 miles I noticed a discrepancy between my throttle settings, speed and my RPM. An increase of 800rpm at 70mph. I put it down to the belt settling in after being disturbed.

After 20 miles of my 100 mile return journey the V light came on. I've only ever had this light come on when a belt change is due. That's where this forum steps in. After reading some relevant articles I am confident that my problem is....I toppled the slider back into place the wrong way round, upside down or back to front.

I won't be able to have a look for a couple of days yet but I’ll post my findings. I bet you all can’t wait!

On tenterhooks!

I just got used to the V light coming on a regular basis when I was running 25gm Dr Pulleys. It's easy to to reset but irritated me, I've now gone back to standard rollers and no more V light visits.
One thing to be aware of resetting the V light also resets the 16K countdown, I rolled past 32K a few weeks back and no V light. So if you, or a previous owner, has reset the light you can no longer rely on that to tell you when the belt change is due you will need to rely on your records.

Last belt change 14K I switched to D&R 28 gram sliders. V-light has not come on once except at 16K normal time. So Steve I think the weight does make a difference.

It does. Changing the weights changes the revs to speed to acceleration ratio, once this exceeds a certain point the ECU identifies this as a transmission problem and has a hissy fit.
I wonder if you fitted really heavy weights this would also fox the ECU?

I checked the sliders today and they all correctly fitted. What's curious is that I have been running with 26g Dr Pulley sliders for ages with no problems. In fact I was impressed with the performance and the 300rpm reduction at 70mph. I'm wondering if it is 'belt slip' or 'clutch slip' causing the trouble?..but again...why now? The belt is only 5000 miles old and is in excellent condition.

I'll rebuild it tomorrow and test it. If it doesn't sort itself out I'm going back to stock 28g rollers.

Loosemarbles wrote:

(Snip) I'll rebuild it tomorrow and test it. If it doesn't sort itself out I'm going back to stock 28g rollers.

You’ve been here long enough to have seen the many posts regarding the “V” light coming ON when using lighter weight Dr Pulley sliders and/or aggressive riding. And until this recent hiccup you’ve enjoyed the perk of your Dr Pulley sliders.

Weight wise there’s not a big difference between 28gm rollers and 26gm sliders. So then why not just continue enjoying the sliders. Reset the “V” light if necessary. Just keep a mental note about when you are due to change the belt.

The above said, give the works a good cleaning. It could be that belt dust has created a drag on one or more of the sliders and that caused the light to come ON.

And while you’ve got things apart check the clutch shoes too. If the are original to your 2002 model the could well be worn enough to cause that hiccup.

You're right Tim. But having ridden several thousands of miles with these sliders I am wondering why they should suddenly start playing up now. Also, I'm not comfortable with the variations in rpm. One minute they're at 5200rpm at 70 mph and then they go to 6000rpm or more at 70 mph.

The pads are not very old and I always keep the variator and clutch drum clean, along with the pulleys. As you say, I am aware of the problems caused by changes in rollers and sliders which is what is leading me to stick to the parts Honda designed for this CVT. The stock rollers used to keep a steady 5500rpm at 70mph. Being the curious type, I always like to know 'why'?

Sorry Chris, I was just focusing on the “V” light, I’d forgotten your mention of the erratic speed/rpm change. Evidently something is causing that to happen but IIRC no one else has ever mentioned a similar erratic behavior. I’m curious to hear what happens if/when you go back to the OEM rollers.

my understanding is the V sensor does monitor engine rpm and compares this with rpm from the rear ABS brake sensor. If there is a large discrepancy based on throttle position (rate of change) it will trigger the warning light. It is a rudimentary (intended) warning the belt is frayed or slipping and needs to be changed. I have no idea what the parameters are but it is more than a 16k light trigger. I picked this info up a number of years ago from a honda dealer. There is no mention of this in any of their shop manual or service bulletins.

My SW doesn't have ABS but there could be a connection between the Throttle Position Sensor and RPM sensor. Now I think about it, I was getting a occasional lag between opening the throttle and the speed increasing, like belt or clutch slip. This was before the V light came on though.

However, the clutch shoes are good, (although a bit darkened), the pulleys are clean and the variator is spotless and belt is about 5000 miles old and in good condition.

I've reset the light and all seems well although I haven't done any motorway riding since.

Here I go again. V light coming on again and RPM/Speed values all over the place. I've ordered some OEM rollers and it's back to stock items. Can't wait to find out if it's my 26g Dr Pulley Sliders causing this

Did you measure the clutch shoes for thickness there is a spec. Can find my manual right now. Shoes can stick if rusted enough or springs snap in there. You have one of oldest SW still on the road. Something is slipping from your weird RPM readings.

I've run 26G and using 24G and my V light never comes on.

Have a good look at the clutch shoes. They consist of a metal shoe, a mid layer and the top wearing layer, if you down to the mid layer they could well be slipping causing the fluctuations you're experiencing.
I replaced mine this last winter.

Thanks you guys. I did consider the belt or the clutch shoes but they're both fairly new. Worth checking though. There is a pattern to my odd readings which goes a bit like this;

I set out from cold and do a 4 mile run and then crawl through town, during which time the revs show 6000rpm at 70mph (constant) and the engine seems to be revving higher than normal around town. I stop to do some shopping then set off taking the long way home. Now my readings are 5100rpm at 70mph and the engine revs are much more 'normal' around town, this is what I'm used to seeing and feeling.

I imagine that if the belt was slipping it would fluctuate during different revs and heat build up. If the clutch was slipping the same would happen but the pattern I mentioned above is kind of 'fixed'....it's always the same.

I think I exaggerated by saying that my readings are "all over the place" but 4000rpm at 40mph?...doesn't feel right. I'm going to inspect the entire clutch assembly while I'm putting the 28g stock rollers in. I am also getting a low frequency squeal on take off but I've had this before over the years and it's usually dirty clutch shoes from my over-greasing the inside bearing of the clutch assembly, so I think this is a 'red herring'.

BTW, my memory tells me that 5500rpm at 70mph is the norm for 28g stock rollers. Does that sound about right?

I recently fought the clutch slipping problem after replacing the shoes. It required several sanding sessions to get all 5 pads making sufficient contact to stop the slipping. I seem to remember that on my scooter 5500 at 70 is about right with stock rollers by the speedometer and around 5900 at 70 by GPS.

The needle bearing has a seal to keep grease inside and you have to carefully wipe off any grease that might get on the outside when you add grease and that be thrown up toward the shoes. The shaft should be clean when you slide the clutch assembly on or you will push grease with that needle bearing seal and it will end up in the shoes and clutch outer. Regretfully, I have made that error.

It goes against my instinct to 'not' grease a drive shaft. spindle or stub axle etc.. I thought I'd learned my lesson by now! I'll take the advice though.

I've had to clean my clutch shoes quite often recently so I need to be stingy with the grease when I get in there. I hope this does turn out to be the problem. Once I've fitted the new rollers I'll test ride before I tackle the clutch assembly and shoes.

If I may, when it comes to greasing / oiling I look at as how did the OEM mfg. do it with the least extra material and labor, in only one case involving a Honda product was I ever told they didn't do this with enough grease, I tend to keep them as they come and found it to be a wise choice.

There's several seals that can fail and contaminate clutch, etc, the front and rear cvt shafts don't need more than a light coat of grease, then wiped off almost dry, if you have and active grease leak, if would show more when cold, heat and friction will displace some as you ride and lessen the slipping. A very high temperature grease is needed in rear pulley, over 250F/120C, do not mix grease types, it will degrade and/or liquify the grease, best to remove/wash out and replace.

 IMO a full teardown/clean is required, do not use any solvent to clean belt or rubber seals, warm water with dish dliquid, or water rinse spray degreasers, followed by rinse/wipe with alcohol, not a fan of high flash solvents around rubber parts, lot's of belts/seals get damaged with brake clean, etc.
 
 The "Seal Collar" in yellow are known to fail, was fairly worn on my bike at 12k !! replaced it. 

zrx212 wrote:

 
 The "Seal Collar" in yellow are known to fail, was fairly worn on my bike at 12k !! replaced it. 

What happens to that seal collar and what happens when it fails? A sudden catastrophic failure which leaves you beside the road… or what?

It looks as if you’ve got a Malossi torque spring in the mix there. Are you going to use the 28gm rollers with that spring. If so, what do you think will be the advantage of just the Malossi upgrade rather than changing to lighter or heavier roller or slider variator weights?

I see the needle and roller bearings for the Driven Pulley. Are these something which you extracted from the original DP assembly or is this the way that the replacement 23205-MCT-305 Driven Face Set is delivered. If you extracted the roller bearing how’d you do it?

Also somewhat related… I recall seeing some Euro aftermarket roller bearing version for the DP collar seal or collar spring guide. It seems to me that a roller bearing collar/spring guide, no matter how tiny the bearing balls, would increase the tension on the torque spring. Anyway, are you familiar with something like this item, and what do you think the advantage of that would be?

"What happens to that seal collar and what happens when it fails? A sudden catastrophic failure which leaves you beside the road… or what? "  

 IMO, The root cause of this failure is lack of lubrication and/or lack of servicing the rear pulley assy, the Honda grease and virtually any grease will dry over time, the guide pins will literally wear thru the collar, is fairly thin, it could cause rear pulley to jam at certain opening,etc, 
pics attached.

" It looks as if you’ve got a Malossi torque spring in the mix there. Are you going to use the 28gm rollers with that spring. If so, what do you think will be the advantage of just the Malossi upgrade rather than changing to lighter or heavier roller or slider variator weights? "

 That pic is 10 months old, only change from oem on my CVT is the Malossi spring, the Malossi spring eliminates belt slap and essentially make your rollers act like they are lighter, because they are pushing against a stronger spring, giving you better response/acceleration, etc. My mileage is still similar to oem. I get a better downshift/acceleration at highway speeds than DRP sliders

  " I see the needle and roller bearings for the Driven Pulley. Are these something which you extracted from the original DP assembly or is this the way that the replacement 23205-MCT-305 Driven Face Set is delivered. If you extracted the roller bearing how’d you do it? "

 Installed new bearings on oem driven pulley, etc, most info here:
https://www.silverwing600.com/t7766-driven-pulley-assembly-rebuild?highlight=Driven+pulley+assembly+rebuild

 "  Also somewhat related… I recall seeing some Euro aftermarket roller bearing version for the DP collar seal or collar spring guide. It seems to me that a roller bearing collar/spring guide, no matter how tiny the bearing balls, would increase the tension on the torque spring. Anyway, are you familiar with something like this item, and what do you think the advantage of that would be? "
 
 Not familiar with one fo SW, but have seen it used on smaller scooters, don't really see significant advantage, possibly another failure point !!

Pics from my SW collar and failed one from another...

I could see that roller pin wearing on seal collar a bit when I replaced driven pulley bearings a few years ago. Looked minor and just rotated it to a different spot. It does have some back up from spring guide the white collar though. If rollers or pins jam or bind that would cause some strange things to happen.

I doubt drive would fail but driven pulley would be stuck in same position. Outer face slot will wear on pins if getting not enough grease and I think that heats up the oil seal collar.

My seal collar only had 11.5k miles, that kind of wear is really bad/excessive/unacceptable.
It kinda proves you cannot check/service/replace parts based on mileage alone, age plays a part also.

I also replaced all guide pins and rollers, etc., $$$ , definitely disassembling/checking more often, once a year ??.

A little while ago I dismantled on old driven unit which I've had in the garage for ages to see exactly what's involved is this task. I think I removed the spring by applying my body weight through my fingers to the spring seat while my ever-obliging partner removed the snap ring.

The seal collar looks fine and the spring is measuring 107mm (correct) but I haven't removed the needle and ball bearing races. Before I reach for my brass 'drift', I wonder if anybody can see why those bearings can't be 'drifted' out? I've never owned a bearing puller and 'drifting' was always the procedure in the past. I can afford to screw this up but I don't want to blunt my brass drift if it's futile.

Could this experiment wind up in the tips and tricks section of the forum? or maybe someone has tried this before. Advice and warnings would be gratefully received

Loose-marbles wrote:

(Snip) The seal collar looks fine and the spring is measuring 107mm (correct) but I haven't removed the needle and ball bearing races. Before I reach for my brass 'drift', I wonder if anybody can see why those bearings can't be 'drifted' out? I've never owned a bearing puller and 'drifting' was always the procedure in the past. (Snip)

Because there’s an all but impossible-to-remove, internal retaining clip (C-ring) holding in the ball bearing. Clean out the grease in the DP tube and have a look down in there.

zrx212 drifted his bearings out and installed them in similar way. Needle bearing one [ the one you over grease is the hard one to remove] Sanp ring on outer bearing is fun to remove too that bearing is easy once snap ring removed. zrx212 has a link he posted above and shows double slip joint plyers that must be modified to remove that snap ring. Fire up the oven about 250F stick inner pulley in stick needle bearing in freezer shouldn't take much to drive it in.

There's several ways to do replace this bearings, two points, 1st, need to make sure that you note the position of the "OLD" needle bearing before removing, there is nothing to stop you from pushing it in too far or not far enough, Taking pics is a good idea and/or measuring, etc. 2nd, whatever method you use to install needle bearings, must insure is going in straight, you should lube bore.

 Here's a good copy/paste from a 1Wingman1 post, kinda summarizes and adds to some ideas posted by others.

"To remove the circlip that retains the ball bearing I used long handled needle nose pliers that I believe that I got at Harbor Freight. They are about 11 inches long and fit through the needle bearing. The ends have to be modified with a grinder or a good file to fit the small holes in the circlip. Clear the grease out of the way, get oriented on the location of the small holes, and you just have to work blindly but a few minutes of searching should be rewarding.  Once the circlip is out of the groove both bearings and the circlip can be driven out all together.  I used the biggest socket turned backwards on an extension that would fit the hole on the ball bearing end and drove everything out.  The ball bearing is slightly smaller than the needle bearing so it will offer no resistance when passing through the needle bearing land.  The needle bearing was a quite tight fit and required some heavy pounding to remove.  I elected to use a ball bearing that has seals on both sides for replacement.  The circlip is easily pushed in until it seats in the groove.  Very satisfying to solve a problem and probably saved about $80.

Since the needle bearing was such a tight fit I didn't want to tap the new one in for fear of some kind of damage. I tapped it lightly to start and align and then used a length of all thread with a large fender washer and nut on the ball bearing end and two appropriate sockets(one reversed inside the other) then a nut and washer to press the needle bearing in. It worked well and it was obvious that the fit was very tight. To handle the big clutch spring I made a tool with all thread and some scrap metals. I guess that I am a pack rat. "


Based on his information I created this figure to have a visual idea of how to remove, you can figure out install with info already given.

Thank you zrx212 for your excellent illustration.

A picture is worth a 1000 words.

Ditto cosmic-jumper. You've provided me with precisely the info I need. I've hit a snag on the bearing removal process:

I filed down the jaws of my multi-articulated long-reach pliers to a flat point and sawed grooves to try to 'latch' onto snap ring holes. When I looked inside the hub I noticed that one of holed flanges of the snap ring has been bent over around the bearing outer housing. My adapted pliers may have done the job but I couldn't get a grip on the damaged flange hole. I got my soldering hook tool and had a thought:



I used this to grab the available hole and pulled until my hair hurt. It brought the snap ring halfway out of it's groove but is now sitting like a helix in the hub. I then decided to convert a useless kitchen fork to pull it all the way out:



Now it's free of it's groove but can't figure out how to remove it from the hub before I start drifting:



Any ideas would be welcome

The snap-ring won't come out "normally" until needle bearing is removed. No need to remove, just turn the snap-ring so it's flat against the back of needle bearing, then push everything out using the other bearing like ilustration above or just hammer out with a drift, the bearing should slide down fairly easy down to snap-ring that's on top of needle bearing now. 

"Read notes on diagram"

Needless to say that old snap-ring is DOA, is 35mm, I sourced plenty of them at hardware store or auto parts.

I didn't really grasp the diagram note until I saw what you meant. I'm going to give this a try but I have one small concern: is the snap ring likely to scratch the bore on it's way out? Just curious.

IMHO It wouldn’t matter if that errant snap ring scratched the cavity bore. The cavity bore just contains a good quantity of grease. While the clutch shaft is smaller diameter than the cavity and rides in the needle and ball bearings at either end wouldn’t come in contact with the cavity walls.

Thanks Tim. BTW, would a 12mm threaded rod do the same job?

I can only find 12mm ones which some places have in stock. A 13mm one means ordering online.

The i.d. of those bearings if 17mm. So why wouldn’t 12mm all thread rod work. 

You might also check Partzilla for the industrial numbers for those bearings. Quite probably quality replacement bearing can be found locally. A friend and I recently replaced bearings in the final drive gear box of his Honda Forza NSS300. We had to wait a month for backordered bearings and seals to arrive from Honda. In retrospect we could have sourced the bearings and seals locally and had the job done in a weekend.

Agreed Tim. I've got all I need to do this but I need to cut down my 1metre long threaded bar and drill out a couple of washers to fit. I'll get stuck in tomorrow. It's good to be able to do a dry run before tackling the actual driven assembly on my SW.

I'll take pictures as I go so this could go into a 'how to..' category.

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:

Thank you zrx212 for your excellent illustration.

A picture is worth a 1000 words.

 My pleasure, figured it was the easiest way too present the info, took me a while with photo editor, but worth it IMO.

I think this thread below is a good one to add some of this bearings replacement info and also, if dealing with these bearings, a lot of tips and info there, kinda repeating some of the same info here.

 https://www.silverwing600.com/t7766-driven-pulley-assembly-rebuild?highlight=Driven+pulley+assembly+rebuild

Well Tim's got some jiggery-pokery to perform in the editing department me thinks!

I'm currently compiling my days work with pics and narrative which will show how to remove and replace both bearings using somewhat crude but effective home made tools.

(To Tim), shall I post it here or start a new topic for it?...and let you edit the topics.

As a postscript to a part of this truncated topic I installed my new OEM 28g rollers today. It was weird after using Dr Pulley sliders for the last few years.

I took a quick spin into town and firstly noticed that the take-off was much more sedate, as you would expect, but the bike felt much more corespondent with the throttle once I gathered speed. There's more power in the mid-range and the bike felt good. Of course I need to take a longer ride under more varied conditions but I did notice that the RPM/Speed differential seemed more logical. Engine idle at 1100rpm was very steady too.

Just for the record here is my history of rollers and sliders:

Bought the bike with worn out OEM 29g rollers and replaced them with 26g Pollini rollers. Then tried 26g Dr Pulley sliders. I'm now back to 28g OEM rollers with 5400rpm at 70mph, about what I'd expect.

If the bike develops those odd RPM/Speed readings and V light illumination mentioned above then I'll have a look at the clutch assembly. I took a look at the clutch shoes while I was in there today and noticed that they were contaminated again so a complete overhaul might put a stop to any grease leakage into the clutch drum.

Loosemarbles wrote:

(Snip) If the bike develops those odd RPM/Speed readings and V light illumination mentioned above then I'll have a look at the clutch assembly. I took a look at the clutch shoes while I was in there today and noticed that they were contaminated again so a complete overhaul might put a stop to any grease leakage into the clutch drum.

If it comes to that you might want to take a close look at the crankshaft seal. Clean that area and the engine side of the belt case to monitor for any leakage. While it’s a PITA to remove that left side swingarm it is much easier to press in a new crankshaft seal than it is to deal with removing & reinstalling the clutch bell to replace that final drive oil seal.

Dave Kitchenman Batter concocted a nice tool to remove the clutch bell which I posted somewhere.

I'm pleased to say that the crankshaft area is shiny, spotlessly clean. However, the grime building up around the rear end of the drive cover made me think about the final drive seal. Trouble is, I can't see anything specific, it looks like it could be coming out of the needle bearing area and distributing itself evenly like a powder coating. The belt looks fine so I'm doubting if it is belt dust.

Anyhow, I've reinstalled the driven assembly onto a dry shaft and I didn't add any grease to anything. Time will tell. I need to get some miles covered and see what happens. If the V light behaves itself I would like to give the driven assembly an overhaul in any case.

This will be an easy job now that I've had a trial run with a spare assembly which I have.

These are parts of the tool I made to remove the bearings;



This is them assembled:



It's based on zrx212's diagram above and it works. As a footnote, the square plate washers will 'act' at the other end of the threaded bar.