Hopefull redesign?

Im sure everyone has seen this already, but im hoping when(and if) they update the silverwing, they do something like this.
Except for hondas penchant for single side headlighting, which is pretty much universally hated!
http://future-motorcycles.com/2010-honda-silverwing-gt-600/

And yea, i know the date is for 2010, but obviously thats not gonna happen so . . . . . . . .

Tagg,

I have read a few of these things about the slighty re-designed SWing. I have that they have changed the aerodynamics somewhat that delivers about 8% better mileage, and that it has an additional 1.5 hp. I'm not sure if that is totally accurate but I have read this on a couple of different sites.

I even think 1 or 2 of our members here has the new SWing too. I hope it makes it to the U.S. next year because I'm curious and would like to check it out. I have seen a pic of the dash and it is pretty cool.

The T-600 is a nice Scoot, but what do you all think of the Mid- Concept, with bigger wheels, dual clutch tranny, thats the Scooter I wish Honda would build. We can only hope. Praying for Japan to get through these difficult times and come back stronger.

robert,

It would be great if they ever built those bikes and I'm curious about the BMW scooter that is supposed to come to market. I wish they would have built the E4-01 that is on youtube.com . It was built in 2005 I think but Honda decided not to come out with it. Way before it's time I guess. You should look it up on youtube to check it out.

Tagg wrote:

Im sure everyone has seen this already, but im hoping when(and if) they update the silverwing, they do something like this...

There is a French website called Scooter Station (http://www.scooter-station.com/) and they have had details of the 2011 MY Honda SW-T 600 (as the new model is known). From what I've read this is a Japan (see http://www.honda.co.jp/SILVERWING/spec/index.html ) and Europe model only. Honda Australia have sold out all their FJS600 SilverWings and their SW-T 400's (same as the 600 except for engine size) and are not importing any new maxi-scooters; the SH300i is as large as we are going to get. I have read that the same applies to the UK and possibly the USA. The Honda USA website still shows a 2011 model of the FJS600 S/W - I'm not sure such a beast is actually manufactured, its not shown on the Honda Japan website .

The Mid-Concept does look really good but so far it is only a concept. Honda Australia got their fingers burned with the DN-01 so I would bet they will be shy on importing the Mid-Concept if it does become a production model.

Regards,
Peter

Why do they only a little update of the Silver Wing that they are looking like a Burgman? Of course the Silver Wing is a good Scooter but the top dog in this segment is the Burgman 650. Why? Because of its technology, the SECVT. The buyers don't want the "old and simple" Variomatic that they know from the 50ccm "kid toy" Scooters!
Honda have also a technology like the SECVT: The HFT from the DN-01
Why do they don't build this in a Silver Wing and do also the "little update" but please don't make the Silver Wing lokking like a Burgman! The Silver Wing should be an independent Scooter and not only a copy of a Burgman!

BlackFly wrote:

Why do they only a little update of the Silver Wing that they are looking like a Burgman? Of course the Silver Wing is a good Scooter but the top dog in this segment is the Burgman 650. Why? Because of its technology, the SECVT. The buyers don't want the "old and simple" Variomatic that they know from the 50ccm "kid toy" Scooters!

I have to disagree with you Blackfly.

I bought the Silver Wing over the bigger engined more technical Burgman for the very reason the 'Wing' is simpler in its build therefore more user friendly for self maintenance and also garage maintenance which mean larger bills.

Simple is best. Easier and cheaper to service.

OK, i have to say it more specified: This is in Europe the reason why the Burgman is the top dog. I don't know the situation in the USA but in Europe especially in Germany all the (very good scooters) like the Silver Wing or the T-Max are standing in the showroom and the Burgman hits the road. The Silver Wing was a long time officially not available in Germany because they are not very well sold...

And don't forget: This "new" Silver Wing is a 10 years old Scooter that is only a little bit pimped. Sorry, but i don't understand Honda in this case, if they want a big piece of the cake they have to do a little bit more and in my opinion the HFT in combination with a cardan will be the best drive system.

Just my two (european/german) cents

And yes, the Silver Wing is more user friendly for self maintenance, but this is not because of the Vario! The Vario needs more Maintenance (scheduled and unscheduled) than the SECVT. The SECVT needs only a periodically Oilchange and nothing else. The damaged SECVT are rare (and mostly caused by the owner, only the "dieseling" is caused by the construction) and more unusual than a a broken belt or something like that. But the other parts of the Burgman are realy not user friendly, igniterchange for example is only possible with some additional joints in your arms and the easiest way is to remove the radiator. If you have to open the SECVT because of one of the rare defects, you have to remove the engine (or exactly lift the Scooter/frame above the engine) otherwise it is not possible to remove the SECVT.
I had a Burgman also with a SECVT damage and now i have a Silver Wing, therefore i know both

BlackFly wrote:

Why do they only a little update of the Silver Wing...

Honda have also a technology like the SECVT: The HFT from the DN-01
Why do they don't build this in a Silver Wing...

Blackfly,

Very good questions! You see the technology Honda uses in some of its motorbikes and they are still world leaders for innovation and quality. When it comes to scooters (and cruisers) they seem to think mediocre is Ok.

My criticism of Honda is often taken as "disloyalty" but that is NOT the case. I like all those things Honda has stood for over the years but sometimes they seem to forget their roots. They are not helped by some of their national distributors (such as here in Australia) who only bring in those models that they think we (the customers) need. For example, the SilverWing was NEVER imported here with the ABS option because they think customers won't pay extra for safety. I should also say they are not alone in doing this.

Regards,
Peter

I just don't see the point in change for the sake of change.
If there were aspects of the Silverwing that were inferior from the point of view of regularly failing they should be upgraded but there aren't any.

Like Waspie I chose the Silverwing over the Burgman because it is simpler and for me, fit for purpose.

I have in mind British Leyland, formerly Austin/Morris.
Their cars were reliable, basic and sold well. In order to keep up with the times they went very technical and produced a range of cars which were very nice and modern but wildly over-engineered - not many about now but there are plenty of Morris 1000s still on the road.
BL sold much of the old machinery to foreign parts where the 'old' cars are still being manufactured, albeit with some upgrades, 50 years on!

My narrow-boat engine was a brand new BL1800cc unit, produced in Turkey - the BMC 1500 B-Series engine (first used in 1953) is still built in India.

I'm not saying that old is better but, again as has been said, vehicles were simpler and it was easy to work on them - in order to maintain a Piaggio X9 500 one has to have a computer to plug into it. We rebored a Morris 1000 with the block still in the car.

OK Blackfly, understand. However.

As a Brit living under the European umbrella!!! (Not my choice!!! ) I am aware of the sales in the EC.

I still don't agree though, must stress this is MY personal opinion.

The large 'maxi' scooter has never really taken off in the UK. There are a lot of sub 500cc machines but the truly larger engined machines are a very small group here. There are more than a few years ago but not so many as to think there will be a revolution.

As for Honda. Why change something that works and looks good? My one major gripe with the automotive industry in general, car/bike. Is that there are model upgrade after model upgrade. You never stay on top. A bit like PC's, as soon as you buy the latest model it is already out of date. I actually like the fact that Honda haven't upgraded the Wing to the point where it isn't anything like it's original concept. That said, designers of bikes are locked into some pretty defined lines and major changes are not really possible due the restraints put upon them by size, physical and engine.

I do like the Burgman, (650), it was a contender when choosing my last machine, having rode the 400 for many years the 650 was a logical progression. But after doing my homework, my wallet couldn't justify a more expensive machine, with an overly complicated transmission system with overly inflated service costs, (certainly in my part of the UK). Another major and I mean major consideration was the physical size, (width), of the beast. It would not have passed through my garden gate where I store my bikes.

I like the 'Wing' I think Honda are correct it not changing it. I always look on Honda as I do Apple. You either want one or don't. Not every ones choice. Honda like Apple, rightly of wrongly obviously think their reputation will carry them along.

So I think we will fore ever agree to disagree on certain aspects.

MikeO wrote:

...I have in mind British Leyland, formerly Austin/Morris.
Their cars were reliable, basic and sold well. In order to keep up with the times they went very technical and produced a range of cars which were very nice and modern but wildly over-engineered - not many about now but there are plenty of Morris 1000s still on the road.
BL sold much of the old machinery to foreign parts where the 'old' cars are still being manufactured, albeit with some upgrades, 50 years on!

Mike,

I worked for BMC which morphed into British Leyland and then morphed again into Leyland Australia. I was a production planner and worked on most models made in Oz (including the P-76 ). I can tell you exactly why BMC/British Leyland went broke - they simply never innovated like the Japanese and European manufacturers. And when they did it was always too little, too late. The Australian operation was not very different to the UK operation (probably slightly more innovative as we started P-76 but that soon went bad - I'll tell you about it if you are interested) but the company as a whole NEVER had the funds to do things right and they didn't have the funds because they never made enough profit. Take the Mini Cooper S for example, John Cooper's royalty of UKP2 per car was more than the profit BMC made on each car. Simply, it doesn't matter how good the car you produce if you can't make it for a profit and can't sell it then you are wasting your share holder's funds. For example, look what BMW have done with the Mini! And VW with the Golf and Polo.

If I can also address Waspie's last comments as well. You are missing the point! Its Ok for you, you have a 2009 model 'Wing. Mine is a 2007 and I intend to change it over at about the four or five year old mark. Honda ARE NOT IMPORTING SILVERWINGS INTO AUSTRALIA OR THE UK (I believe) so what do I buy next. I would like another Honda, this is my fourth, but I want something bigger than an SH300i.

Your Apple synergy is very apt. I too have owned several Apple Mac over the years (I still have an original 128K pillar-box model in the cupboard). My experience is that you pay top money for a Mac only to have Apple either replace the hardware platform or the operating system making your expensive bit of kit obsolete over night. Three times I was caught like that but never again.

Manufacturers need to innovate and they need to support their customers.

Regards,
Peter

Hello Peter,
I used the example of BL to illustrate the point about change for change's sake.
I have no doubt that there was, as you say, more background to the demise of the company, not least the input of Red Robbo and his cronies.

BlackFly mentioned the transmission on the Burgman, that it rarely fails. Of that there is no doubt but it does fail and I for one don't want to be faced with the huge bills for putting it right if I'm unfortunate to have the rare failure.

As I said, the Silverwing is fit for purpose as far a my needs go and to turn it into direct competition with the Burgman serves only to narrow the choice to Brand Warfare.

Edited for spelling

pja wrote:

If I can also address Waspie's last comments as well. You are missing the point! Its Ok for you, you have a 2009 model 'Wing. Mine is a 2007 and I intend to change it over at about the four or five year old mark. Honda ARE NOT IMPORTING SILVERWINGS INTO AUSTRALIA OR THE UK (I believe) so what do I buy next. I would like another Honda, this is my fourth, but I want something bigger than an SH300i.

Your Apple synergy is very apt. I too have owned several Apple Mac over the years (I still have an original 128K pillar-box model in the cupboard). My experience is that you pay top money for a Mac only to have Apple either replace the hardware platform or the operating system making your expensive bit of kit obsolete over night. Three times I was caught like that but never again.

Manufacturers need to innovate and they need to support their customers.

Regards,
Peter

Actually Peter, to be pedantic!!! My 2009 'Wing' is a 2007 model. So what point have I missed? There were either no changes to the spec that year or I simply bought an old off the shelf bike.

Not bothered, I like it and ticks all the boxes.

Life is way too short to get caught up in the semantics of the automotive industry, ( I speak as an outsider and not one having ever been in the trade). Manufacturers come and go, who knows if Honda et al will be around in the years to come.

We in the UK have seen the vast majority of our motor industry either go bust for the reasons you stated or simply bought out and allowed to decline. So for one I just buy what I like and available on the day.

MikeO wrote:

BlackFly mentioned the transmission on the Burgman, that it rarely fails. Of that there is no doubt but it does fail and I for one don't want to be faced with the huge bills for putting it right if I'm unfortunate to have the rare failure.

As I said, the Silverwing is fit for purpose as far a my needs go and to turn it into direct competion for the Burgman serves only to narrow the choice to Brand Warfare.

Mike, can you remember what forum the Burger owner who had the failure was on? I believe the figure he quoted was circa £3k+ to have repaired. More than the price of a half decent used machine!!!!!

Lovely machine - way too expensive to repair.

Hello Doug.
There's a chap on Allsuperscooters who has had BIG trouble with his Burgman's transmission - I can't remember the details but it was taking months to sort out.

Hearsay I know but friends -JJ, Barrycello et all - feed back tit-bits from BurgmanUSA and the business with the stopper-bolt failing is well-known.

There is also a problem with engine-oil being blown into the gearbox; JJ's had that on his.

Incidentally, Barrycello (another Mr.Bling) has just bought a year-old 650 from JohnP.
He took it for a ride on Sunday and remarked just how light it felt without all the bling and topbox on.
I wait with interest to see if the Fehling's towel-rails from the old one get swapped over; I expect they will as he spent a fortune having them all rechromed.

The persons name on the allsuperscooters site is WBP. I have spoken to Bill a few times on the phone and he is a very nice person and very pro Burgman, until his trouble, since he wants the biggest touring type of scooter. He had his CVT replaced and then after 1200 miles it went out again. He then had to have it replaced again which made him lose about 3-4 months of riding. And Bill does alot of riding, so he must have been going crazy.

In the local club we have a person that bought a B650 just to have the oil go from one place to another and he had to have the engine rebuilt. After they did that he sold it and bought another one. He was riding that one in the twisties and then had a total electrical failure that killed his bike and he ran into a railing, but was ok other than scrapes and bruises. I know these things are few and far between but that is one reason I didn't buy a B650 either. I have never ridden one but there can't be that much of a difference. 5 hp for almost a 600 lbs couldn't be that much of a difference adn the tires are only 1" bigger. I know people say they are a bit smoother but after reading about some of the horror stories I decided on the SWing too. I don't care about the best but I hate when things go wrong and the SWing seems to have a agreat record. Just my opinion though.

Having had TMAX, Burgman 400 and SilverWing until 4 weeks ago.....and ridden Burgman 650.

Honda remains easiest to own in US----Upgrade.....should be no adj valves/easy remove wheels/better wind management/while belt drive is simple, it is for most part trouble free, being changed on time and not monkeyed with.

If only the designers rode everyday.

I will ride my new NT a year and trade again for scooter----advancing age, fun, step thru, I happen to like scooter if for nothing more than the dry feet thing.

Maxi scooters are not high on the bike companies list of things to further develop. Since I ride a lot, enjoy it, I am not looking for a mini GoldWing.....Would buy one if I wanted it bad enough. Weight=not fun in snow/mud/slippery/fall over.

John Grinsel

John, the NT not working out to your liking?

NT is fine---about same weight as Silverwing, same fuel mileage, probably easier to work on as miles pile up. Performance near same/SilverWing smoother.

Best feature: lack of or less buffeting than SilverWing Worst: flobby rubber padded foot pegs.

There is also long reach from seat to bars----think BMW K-75----Doesn't bother me, but I bet the highway peg/drink holder/bar riser/driver back rest crowd would find it unsat. Givi Box works/

No tool adjustable windshield plus, not having to buy new windshield to make living with bike liveable is also plus. Both SilverWing and NT (Deauville) have been on market a long time, so work. Nice to have another bike that works on WalMart Oil.

As long from money standpoint that I can, new bike each year as it makes life interesting.

As my bike requirements are strict---able to stand on pegs/center stand/no shim valve adjust/reg gas/no black wheels/not cruiser!!!/decent carrying (junk and luggage), my choices are limited----60mpg overall would be nice,too. Neither SilverWing or NT can do that.

John Grinsel

I have an NT and the wife has a Silverwing. I had always had a cruiser but the Sport Touring style NT was calling me. I was about to add a used Silvering for myself but popped for the NT. Not sure I made the right move and it's likely if the Silverwing gets a decent update next year, I'll be trading. Funny thing is for long journeys I will probably grab the wifes Silverwing instead of my "touring" machine.
I was curious what you thought of the two since not many have had the opportunity to compare like we do. I'm only 50, but I give up. Everything I am looking for on a bike is what the Silverwing offers.

john grinsel wrote:

NT is fine---about same weight as Silverwing, same fuel mileage, probably easier to work on as miles pile up. Performance near same/SilverWing smoother...

John,

I have posted on here before about a mate I used to tour with who had a Deauville (NT-700). See below:



We have covered thousands of kilometres together and I agree with you, the two bikes are very similar. Overall performance is very similar although he always rode much faster than I did but that's not a negative for the 'Wing just my conservative riding style. I like the big wheels of the NT but it's weather protection is not as good as the 'Wing. Luggage capacity in the two panniers is also less. You can buy bigger lids but they cost AUD1,000 over here.

Within our local Ulysses group both bikes are not seen as "real tourers" - a view held by those who have never ridden either. I also agree about seating position, the 'Wing seems much better as one gets older

By the way,
click her to see a ride report featuring both bikes.

Regards,
Peter

P76... my heart bleeds for you Peter. Tell me, did you ever find out if the guys that designed the front ever met the guys that designed the rear

Just kidding ,great car.... wrong time There are still a lot of fans around out there somewhere. At least we know they didn't get stuck between Adelaide and Darwin.

KurtPerthWA wrote:

P76... my heart bleeds for you...

Kurt,

I will tell you an amusing story. I was actually working on P-76 components (brake disks and drums I think) but had not seen any drawings of the actual car. This is approx. 12 to 18 months before the car was to be launched. We were all aware that it was make or break for the company .

One of my areas of responsibility was the transfer machine that currently produced engine blocks for the Moris 1500 sedan and Nomad wagon (for any UK readers this was a Morris 1100 type car with the E-Series 1500 cc OHC engine - I'm not sure if it was made in the UK). [An aside: You know why it was called a "Nomad"? Because "No mad bastard would ever buy one ] Back to the story; I was asked to do a favour for the Experimental Shop. The Morris Marina (I actually bought one of those would you believe?) was the next car to go into production (before P-76) and they wanted some engine blocks for the experimental/test fleet. The engines were very similar and by granting the favour it would save them a lot of money. Well we agreed and produced the blocks for them.

When they were finished I grabbed a laborer and we moved the blocks up to the Experimental Shop. Ordinarily I would not have been allowed to get in, it was all top secret. However, in we went. Sitting in the middle of the studio was a hand built P-76. I went home that night and said to my wife "I need to get another job before all my colleagues are out on the street competing for work"

Sadly, I was proven to be right. Lots more tales if you are ever interested.

Regards,
Peter

I think there was a 1300cc '1100' but the Maxi was 1500 - H-Series engine?

My best friend's dad (who taught me to drive in his Farina Austin Cambridge) bought a Marina 1800, ex-demo so it had everything including twin carbs.
It went like sh*t off a shovel, lovely car.
He sold to to a friend of the friend who then wrote it off (before the body rotted away) as the handling wasn't quite what it could have been.

MikeO wrote:

I think there was a 1300cc '1100' but the Maxi was 1500 - H-Series engine?

Mike,

Please have a look here the Maxi used the E-Series. In Australia we used the 1500 cc version in a car called the Morris 1500 (and Nomad) and then the 1750 cc version in the Marina. A 2200 cc version was used in the Austin Kimberly (twin SU carbs) and Tasman which I think were unique to Oz and lastly a 2600 cc version was used in both the Marina and the P-76.

I got my Marina (a 1750 cc model) several years after leaving Leyland Australia (as it then was) and after we had moved to Canberra. It was a great car on the billiard smooth roads around Canberra but out on our rural roads the direction the steering wheel pointed bore no resemblence to where the wheels were pointing - handling was terrible. Ride, on the other hand, was very smooth and I remember the seats being very comfortable. I was a Renault fan at the time and it was almost as comfortable as an R-12 or R-16 (and that's saying something).

Eventually a country priest who had too much alter wine one Sunday morning ran head-on into the Marina and put the poor bugger out of its misery.

Just another aside, I have owned eight cars over the years and IMHO the two Mazda's (a 90's 626 and a current 3) have been the best followed by a VW 1200 cc Beatle (my first car) and a Renault R-10. Ford Falcon (which you don't get over there) was also quite good. I purchased the Marina at a time of considerable unrest in the Oz car industry, everybody was on strike. I had a Renault R-12 on order for months and in desperation cancelled the order and bought the Marina (which was in plentiful stock - that should have told me something). Other cars on the "disliked list" were MG Midget (very pretty, too hot in the Oz sun and leaked like a sieve and I should have got either a Datsun 2000 or a Mini Cooper S instead), Holden Torana 3300 cc six which ties in last place with the Marina as my all time duds.

What a load of BS sorry I rambled,

Peter

KurtPerthWA wrote:

P76... my heart bleeds for you...

Kurt and Mike,

Here is a Wikipedia entry on the Morris Nomad; what a horrid little car

Peter

pja...thoroughly enjoyed the write-up on your ride

I was at a grand opening of the Leeds Honda dealership at the weekend. Having chatted to the dealer principal, he was adamant that the Silverwing wasn't to be "upgraded" and were still like rocking horse droppings to get hold of.

He was, however, hinting that the Pan was the next to "Auto"

I would say that the new scoot looks a lot nicer than the old, but it still is not functionally different enough to get me to spend money on it.

When people are bragging about their bikes, it invariable boils down to three things: which motor is biggest, which has more horsepower, and which is fastest. Honda could walk away with this contest by bumping the cc's to 650-700. Improve the variator (maybe making the J Costa standard) and it would outrun any B650 made. One of the items that B650 owners like to trumpet for it's "superiority" are the larger wheels on the Burgman. If you do the math, the overall diameter is virtually the same between the B650 and the Swing, but the Swing has higher profile rubber on a smaller rim. I doubt that there is any ride quality difference between the bikes due to the wheel size. Honda could bump the rim diameter easily for very little cost difference.

They also need to address some of the issues that seem to haunt these forums: better windshield, better seat, firmer fork springs. There is no reason you should have to spend $8-9K for a bike, only to spend another $1k swapping the windscreen, seat and fork springs.

Like many of the posters here, I tried a B650 and ended up choosing the Swing because of the simpler maintenance, smoother ride at low speeds (did not like the engine braking of the B650), and lighter weight. I'll stick with the one I have until it wears out, or Honda makes some REAL changes.

BlackFly wrote:

Why do they only a little update of the Silver Wing that they are looking like a Burgman? Of course the Silver Wing is a good Scooter but the top dog in this segment is the Burgman 650. Why? Because of its technology, the SECVT. The buyers don't want the "old and simple" Variomatic that they know from the 50ccm "kid toy" Scooters!
Honda have also a technology like the SECVT: The HFT from the DN-01
Why do they don't build this in a Silver Wing and do also the "little update" but please don't make the Silver Wing lokking like a Burgman! The Silver Wing should be an independent Scooter and not only a copy of a Burgman!

I think the market is different in Germany/EU than it is in the USA. In the USA, it's mostly old farts that no longer care what they look like when riding that buy these things - they are riding it because it meets their needs better than a cruiser. In the EU, I am guessing that the average age of a maxi-scooter owner is probably lower. Younger folks like to keep up with what is "newer and better", and will choose it over old-school technology.

Also, if they added the HFT transmission, the price would probably jump considerably. One reason the haven't updated it a lot is probably because it doesn't sell in large quantities. If the price jumps because of the fancy tranny, even fewer people would buy it.

Just a couple of random thoughts.

BTW Blackfly, your English is great. I would love to be able to read/write another language as well as you do English.

I'm 32years old and also in Germany a youngster on Silver Wing
On Burgman 650 you will find more young people but in germany the young guys normaly ride bikes and scooters mostly have only 125ccm. The 300 and 400ccm are also popular but the really big scooters are rare and mostly ridden by the "old farts".
In other european countrys is another situation (take a look to Paris for example) but you can see that the "high tech" SECVT beats the "oldschool" Variomatic in nearly every european country (except italy, there is and will be forever Piaggio the leader): In Germany the Silver Wing was a long time not available because they don't sell it. The Burgman don't have this problem...

But i indeed that the EU and US market seems to be a complete different world. But the old US farts don't like the smooth cruising that is possible with the HFT because of the situation depending regulating? But i also think that the US mindset is a little bit more old school i can see this also in comparisation of the Boeing and Airbus Aircrafts complete different worlds

And thanks for the flowers I'm working on aircrafts and all the documentation is in english, therefore i have to work with technical english but i think my smalltalk needs a little bit more excerise. It's also a good training here and i bought also the complete Harry Potter Series in English after i read all the books in german several times