Insurance with Darkside tire

Here is an email response from Progressive. I have posed the question to other companies as well. Obviously, you would want to check with your own carrier. But this response should help to answer this particular question.

Dear Mr. MikeH,

Thank you for contacting Progressive. We appreciate the time you have taken to send us the information that we requested.

I reviewed our guidelines and as long as the bike hasn't been modifiedto accept the tire, it can be used.

If the frame of the motorcycle had been modified then a surcharge would be applied.

We appreciate the time you took to explore our Web site and quote a new policy with Progressive. If you have any additional questions or concerns, please feel free to reply to this e-mail or contact our Customer Service Department.

Sincerely,

Ingrid W.
Progressive
Internet Representative

I talked to a Foremost agent yesterday about insuring the S'WIng with the car tire. He went and asked the underwriter while I was on the phone. The underwriter told him that the scooter WOULD be covered.

So far, that is 2 for 2 of the companies I have checked with. I will check with more as I get time.

Why on Earth would you even ask them? In a million years they'd never notice, even if you got in a wreck.

That was my feeling as well Mickey. But the topic has been hotly debated on another forum with claims that insurance companies would deny coverage or raise premiums. I really like my darkside tire, but I wanted to be certain that insurance was not an issue. I decided to get an answer myself instead of rely on opinion and hearsay. There are several darkside users on this site so I thought I'd post what I have learned.

Its always worth asking and pointing out to them because its their jobs to get out of paying for any reason they can find

MikeH wrote:

I really like my darkside tire, but I wanted to be certain that insurance was not an issue. I decided to get an answer myself instead of rely on opinion and hearsay. There are several darkside users on this site so I thought I'd post what I have learned.

Which also helps other future darksiders to properly decide for themselves.

I'd like to thank honda silver for pointing me towards the info regarding US insurance companies and the fitting of car tyres. Here in the UK insurance companies are starting to clamp down on the number of modifications you can make to your motorcycle or scooter, especially performance and handling mods.

Maybe metallic_It who started the topic "UK Darkside Experience" and urged us to go Darkside like him might like to comment on insurance matters, and how we stand legally by going Darkside in the UK. He hasn't posted anything more on the subject since starting the topic.

MikeH wrote:

That was my feeling as well Mickey. But the topic has been hotly debated on another forum with claims that insurance companies would deny coverage or raise premiums. I really like my darkside tire, but I wanted to be certain that insurance was not an issue. I decided to get an answer myself instead of rely on opinion and hearsay. There are several darkside users on this site so I thought I'd post what I have learned.

I asked the same question when I went darkside on my Goldwing. Thank you for doing so.... and further, to post the results here.

I have seen this question over and over again on darkside threads.

I once called Progressive (about 2 years ago when I was insured by them) to ask about the use of a car tire on my bike. They did tell me, when I asked, that if they determined the bike went out of control and the rear tire could have contributed to the accident, and that tire was not a motorcycle tire - that they would probably not cover the damage.

What were you told when you asked in reference to your goldwing?

I still have the tire if anyone wants it. But then again it is not a Sumitomo and the edgy folks who put car tires on their bikes aren't generally brave enough to put anything but a Sumitomo on their bike - not that damn edgy...

I guess using a trailor made for pulling behind the Wing would be a similar situation.

I called the "little lizzard" and they said no problem. Right away, no hesitation.

Tires are rated for speed and weight.

larryinseattle wrote:

I called the "little lizzard" and they said no problem. Right away, no hesitation.

Tires are rated for speed and weight.

This comes up quite often, I have read similar stories about insurnce appoving car tires on MC in Canada and Australia and New Zeland.

WingMan wrote:

I have read similar stories about insurnce appoving car tires on MC in Canada and Australia and New Zeland.

Interesting ... I was not aware that the the British Commonwealth countries of Australia and New Zealand allowed Darkside tires. Is this recent or have they allowed for a while??

WingMan wrote:

I guess using a trailor made for pulling behind the Wing would be a similar situation.

Well I think this would potentially be a problem since the Honda Owners manual for the Silverwing does indeed state that towing a trailer is not safe or recommended (paraphrased).

jdeereanton wrote:

WingMan wrote:

I guess using a trailor made for pulling behind the Wing would be a similar situation.

Well I think this would potentially be a problem since the Honda Owners manual for the Silverwing does indeed state that towing a trailer is not safe or recommended (paraphrased).

There are no legal cases found where insurance is void due to a motorcycle pulling a trailer because Honda, Harley or any other motorcycle maker is covering their butt by putting a disclaimer in their owner's manual that it will void your warranty.

Creating an unsafe situation by over loading the bikes capability to adequately stop could be a cause for a ticket, therefore could be contributing to the cause of an accident.

The maximum load on a motorcycle should be followed even when using a trailer. All contents of the trailer and the trailer's tongue weight should be added up and this number should not exceed the motorcycle's maximum allowable weight. The motorcycle's braking system should not be exceeded. Ya have to stop.......

Here is a picture of a setup that I had for my Goldwing..... using my calculations, I was over loaded but I could handle riding this and did. However, I left plenty of distance between me and other vehicles, but I was still over loaded.



Clearly this guy is over loaded as well:

larryinseattle wrote:

...
Creating an unsafe situation by over loading the bikes capability to adequately stop could be a cause for a ticket, therefore could be contributing to the cause of an accident.
...

And, while you are only addressing the trailer issue, (and I agree) this very statement also obliquely addresses my earlier post about the car tire on a bike. If the insurance company determines that the tire was a contributing factor and the tire is not a motorcycle tire (or is a M/C tire worn beyond serviceable limits) they could deny coverage.

A passenger tire on the back of a motorcycle will never "cause" an accident. By law, the tire, by the Department of Transportation is rated for weight and speed. If the tire fits.... it is a passenger tire on a motorcycle. It is called a passenger tire.

This has been beat up over and over again. Please accept this as fact. There is no purpose in causing unnecessary fear among fellow riders. Caution, yes, but not fear.

larryinseattle wrote:

A passenger tire on the back of a motorcycle will never "cause" an accident. By law, the tire, by the Department of Transportation is rated for weight and speed. If the tire fits.... it is a passenger tire on a motorcycle. It is called a passenger tire.

This has been beat up over and over again. Please accept this as fact. There is no purpose in causing unnecessary fear among fellow riders. Caution, yes, but not fear.

Larry,

Please carefully reread my post - do I say a car tire would "cause" an accident? No I do NOT! It is important to not attempt to rephrase the argument to fit your needs. I do agree that a car tire fitted on a motorcycle is unlikely to "cause" an accident. I stand by my contention that if it can be determined to be a contributing factor, much like overloading a trailer, then the insurance company may bow out of it's coverage. Now, if I add "and that's a fact" does it make it so?

But, I will accept as a fact that this has been "beat up over and over again."

Actually, the higher load rating of the car tire contributes to its safety factor. A number of riders exceed that tires load rating when carrying a passenger, and a few items when going on tour. The better grip of the rear tire helps considerably in stopping power, especially when a lot of weight is over or behind the rear axel. Think about it.

If your motorcycle tire experiences a blowout and that causes a wreck, then your insurance company is liable.

If your car tire experiences a blowout and it causes a wreck, then your insurance company is liable.

I have not heard of an instance whereby an insurance company was able to limit their liability due to a passenger tire being installed on a motorcycle. If this has occurred, believe me, it would have greatly been discussed in the motorcycle forums that have a high percentage of darkside riders. The HD guys and the Goldwing guys would be all over that in discussion. Many Darksiders are Attorneys and professionals.

The other side of this is what people continue to perpetuate....which is exactly what you are saying, that the insurance company could. NO, the insurance company cannot get out of their liability for damages due to a passenger tire being installed on a motorcycle.

I am not trying to be confrontational over this matter, but this gets repeated over and over again, in spite of the facts.

I realize that the number of darksiders on Maxi-Scooters is low and that this is a forum for Maxi-Scooters and there is some experimentation with passenger tires on the Wing. This is not new. It has been done for 75 years in the USA. If there was a case whereby the insurance company successfully limited their liability due to a car tire on a motorcycle, it would be discussed OVER AND OVER AGAIN. There just are none.

My example of an over loaded trailer could contribute to an accident.... is just that. The rider could be written a ticket and in a court of law, be held liable for an accident caused by his negligence. The insurance company would still be held liable in the case and the parties would be paid. He might get cancelled, but the insurance company would pay.

If the insurance company could get out of liability cases due to someone drinking and driving........... they would still pay.

If you ran a red light.......... they would still pay.

If you fell asleep while operating the motorcycle...... they would still pay.

If you loaned your motorcycle to an unlicensed driver....... they would still pay.

If you used your vehicle in the commission of a felony and caused damages to others..... they would be able to limit their liability to you, but to the other people, they would pay.

I am not an attorney..... but I am an educated professional who has looked into this matter for my own self preservation. I am not here to give legal advice. Just sharing what I have come to know.

WingMan wrote:

Actually, the higher load rating of the car tire contributes to its safety factor. A number of riders exceed that tires load rating when carrying a passenger, and a few items when going on tour. The better grip of the rear tire helps considerably in stopping power, especially when a lot of weight is over or behind the rear axel. Think about it.

This is partially correct. The vehicle max load is factored on several things, not just the load limit of the tire. The brakes and axle loads are also a consideration to the over all vehicle max load capability.

I do feel safer with my Goldwing fully loaded up with a 1200 pound max load limit on my tire rather than the 900 that an E3 is rated for.

larryinseattle wrote:

If the insurance company could get out of liability cases due to someone drinking and driving........... they would still pay.

If you ran a red light.......... they would still pay.

If you fell asleep while operating the motorcycle...... they would still pay.

If you loaned your motorcycle to an unlicensed driver....... they would still pay.

If you used your vehicle in the commission of a felony and caused damages to others..... they would be able to limit their liability to you, but to the other people, they would pay.

I am not an attorney..... but I am an educated professional who has looked into this matter for my own self preservation. I am not here to give legal advice. Just sharing what I have come to know.

Any of you US riders considering riding in the UK, DO NOT try any of the above.

You will be prosecuted, our insurance companies are a hell of a lot less tolerant.

And I should add, our police even less tolerant!!!

Waspie wrote:

larryinseattle wrote:

If the insurance company could get out of liability cases due to someone drinking and driving........... they would still pay.

If you ran a red light.......... they would still pay.

If you fell asleep while operating the motorcycle...... they would still pay.

If you loaned your motorcycle to an unlicensed driver....... they would still pay.

If you used your vehicle in the commission of a felony and caused damages to others..... they would be able to limit their liability to you, but to the other people, they would pay.

I am not an attorney..... but I am an educated professional who has looked into this matter for my own self preservation. I am not here to give legal advice. Just sharing what I have come to know.

Any of you US riders considering riding in the UK, DO NOT try any of the above.

You will be prosecuted, our insurance companies are a hell of a lot less tolerant.

And I should add, our police even less tolerant!!!

This is interesting to me, although I have no intention of riding a darksided motorcycle in the UK. I understand there is some great motorcycle roads there.

I do wonder why this has evolved in that manner. I am not going to study the case law on this..... just that laws are different there obviously.

larryinseattle wrote:

This is interesting to me, although I have no intention of riding a darksided motorcycle in the UK. I understand there is some great motorcycle roads there.

I do wonder why this has evolved in that manner. I am not going to study the case law on this..... just that laws are different there obviously.

Very different. As has already been stated on a few D/S threads. The riding of a car tyre on a motorcycle is illegal here in Blighty.

And for that reason I don't for the life of me know why so many people get wound up over the subject. We, (Brits,) cannot ride with a D/S tyre so I really cannot see the problem.

Waspie wrote:

We, (Brits,) cannot ride with a D/S tyre so I really cannot see the problem.

metallic_It claims he's had a car tyre fitted and he's not posted anything since. He seems to be the only one, and he chose an obscure budget brand tyre, not the Sumitomo which seems to be the tyre of choice of Silver Wing Darksiders. Probably because they aren't available in the UK.

Meldrew wrote:

Waspie wrote:

We, (Brits,) cannot ride with a D/S tyre so I really cannot see the problem.

metallic_It claims he's had a car tyre fitted and he's not posted anything since. He seems to be the only one, and he chose an obscure budget brand tyre, not the Sumitomo which seems to be the tyre of choice of Silver Wing Darksiders. Probably because they aren't available in the UK.

He may have actually looked at the .gov site and realised he is breaking the law. We all know what insurance companies think of law breakers. Break the law = Invalid insurance.

It's quite simple, 'can't so don't.'

What I find interesting, regarding overloading of bikes and tires,
is this gadget:
http://www.comingthrough.se/main.php?lang=UK
This is essentially a GL1800 towtruck. capable of towing 2500kg, which I am assuming far exceeds the Honda Recommended towing capacity.
Here is a video of it in action:
http://www.goldwingworld.com/pages/towtruck.htm

And....It appears to use standard Motorcycle tires...Hmmmm.

Dan

larryinseattle wrote:

[This is interesting to me, although I have no intention of riding a darksided motorcycle in the UK. I understand there is some great motorcycle roads there.

There are great motorcycle roads and they are not as straight and wide as you are used to in the US. They are narrower and have a greater ratio of bends and curves. Country roads can have any combination of roadside hedges, ditches, adverse camber, drystone walls, buildings, and in open road areas above the tree line, wandering sheep, cross winds etc.

dspevack wrote:

What I find interesting, regarding overloading of bikes and tires,
is this gadget:
http://www.comingthrough.se/main.php?lang=UK
This is essentially a GL1800 towtruck. capable of towing 2500kg, which I am assuming far exceeds the Honda Recommended towing capacity.
Here is a video of it in action:
http://www.goldwingworld.com/pages/towtruck.htm

And....It appears to use standard Motorcycle tires...Hmmmm.

Dan

I am sure his dolly has power assisted brakes. The weight of the towed vehicle is on the dolly. Tongue weight would be the issue here.

I can't see his rear tire, but that doesn't matter to me, that is his choice. Perhaps he is operating in the UK, where it would be illegal.

If I was going into the towing business, I would use a 1.5 ton truck with a hoist. I am not sure this guy has the answer.... he has an answer, but I don't see franchises popping up all over the country like Kentucky Fried Chicken.

Also, since it is being used as a commercial vehicle, the warranty would be shortened or terminated anyway. I am sure he doesn't have a basic Progressive Motorcycle Policy either.

I would think an 1800 motor could be adapted to an inboard boat motor. There is probably one out there.

Actually I think this a very interesting idea.
The problem with it is twofold.

1. Insurance in the USA for an extra charge you will be guaranteed a flatbed. This is in useless for those situations.

2. SUVs that are loaded. It only handles 5500lbs. which sounds like a lot, but in reality the curb weight of a Chevy Suburban is 5600 lbs.