Question about rollers

Does anyone know how to tell when rollers need to be changed?
what would be an indication of that need?

I think you need to measure them with a caliber. If you have the manual you can look up the specs. I would think about changing to sliders though. It seems to smooth the SWing out a bit more and it is already smooth. You can get different weights too if you want a bit more acceleration.

When rollers wear they get a flat spot.

But as Jeff says you might want to consider changing to aftermarket Dr Pulley sliding roller weights.

A good time to make the change is when you change the belt.

I don't ever recall anyone posting that they have been disappointed after making the change. The most popular "size" sliders are 28 gm (the same weight as the OEM rollers) and 26 gm. Lighter = quicker acceleration. HTH

Tim

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:

When rollers wear they get a flat spot.

But as Jeff says you might want to consider changing to aftermarket Dr Pulley sliding roller weights.

A good time to make the change is when you change the belt.

I don't ever recall anyone posting that they have been disappointed after making the change. The most popular "size" sliders are 28 gm (the same weight as the OEM rollers) and 26 gm. Lighter = quicker acceleration. HTH

Tim

I started with the 26gm sliders, and finally ended up with the 24gm.  The 24 gm sliders seem to create less vibrations on the initial take-off.

replace OEM rollers with each belt change, use OEM belt. Worked for me for about 300,000 rubber band drive scooter miles,only one broken belt. Want better performance=get a motorcycle......and they (Honda) are now much cheaper in US Market, than SilverWing!

Sort of on those same subjects, what has been
the life-expectancy of sliders? Longer than rollers?
And do they cause faster wear of anything else?

It seems as though most mainstream scooters use
rollers from the factory. Would sliders be that much more expensive
to use instead, or are there other discouraging features to sliders?

I changed the rollers in my 2010 swing at 32,000 miles I measured them and found that they showed no wear,which surprised me,I also changed the sliders which showed some wear on one side .The oem rollers were about 20.00 and the sliders were about 7.00 I also changed the belt while I was in there,I measured the belt and it showed absolutely no wear in12,500 miles.The swing seems to be bullet proof,I don't abuse my swing but I don't baby it either.

I put Dr Pulley sliders in at 22,000mls. The main difference is the acceleration that you get from the sliders, My son in law on his Burgman 650 just cannot come anywhere near my overtaking capabilities. I also believe they last twice as long as Rollers, as i'm up to 32,000mls now i don't expect to need to change them till 66,000mls. I just did the 32,000 mls service and changed the drive belt. 

Just reading these posts and wondering if any UK riders could tell me where to get hold of good value spares and the Dr pulley sliders
Thanks

I got mine from Dr Pulley.com. A good place for spares is on Ebay. I put FJS 6oo in M/C parts.  Dr Pulley sent me an Email wishing me a happy a Birthday recently, what a nice gesture.! 

I recently got drivebelt & steering head bearings from http://www.wemoto.com/bikes/ branded componants & prompt delivery

Suggest that EVERYONE change to 24 gram Dr. Pulley Sliders next time you change your belt. I did this about 35,000 miles ago and it has been one of my best SWing $60 investments!

I am running the 22g sliders and I love them. I still get 50 to 54 miles per gallon and can see 110+mph on the speedometer.

The Scootist wrote:

I am running the 22g sliders and I love them.  

Have you tried any other Dr Pulley Weights? And if so, how do they compare to the 22gram ones you are using? I love my 24gram weights so much I am thinking that maybe 22gram will be ever better?

Whats the gain guys for using diffenent weights guys is there a how to anywhere
thanks
Rob

The Scootist wrote:

I am running the 22g sliders and I love them.  I still get 50 to 54 miles per gallon and can see 110+mph on the speedometer.

I am still not sure about this whole sliders-rollers thing. My 2012 matches the above figures easily with OEM rollers, so why switch? Just curious.

GHM-PM wrote:

The Scootist wrote:

I am running the 22g sliders and I love them.  I still get 50 to 54 miles per gallon and can see 110+mph on the speedometer.

I am still not sure about this whole sliders-rollers thing.    My 2012 matches the above figures easily with OEM rollers, so why switch?  Just curious.

I switched in order to reduce vibrations on takeoff, and reduce my freeway RPMs. I was not disappointed.

I have often been disappointed in the past when people on forums have gushed about how big a difference this or that expensive aftermarket part made, so I bought one, and didn't notice any difference. I definitely noticed a difference between rollers and sliders. It vibrates less, and it dropped my freeway RPMs by about 500.

I guess that makes sense but I have very little vibration at any point and my MPG are usually 55 or higher. Not sure if I would see much difference. Not saying they don't but since my SWing is running so well... "If it ain't broke..." ?

GHM-PM wrote:

I guess that makes sense but I have very little vibration at any point and my MPG are usually 55 or higher.  Not sure if I would see much difference.  Not saying they don't but since my SWing is running so well...  "If it ain't broke..." ?

This particular mod is all about preference, really, and if you're happy with how your scoot is running, then sliders aren't for you.

I went to sliders and I don't think I would never go back to rollers.

GHM-PM wrote:

I guess that makes sense but I have very little vibration at any point and my MPG are usually 55 or higher.  Not sure if I would see much difference.  Not saying they don't but since my SWing is running so well...  "If it ain't broke..." ?

Glen
The sliders give you the opportunity to accelerate faster than the stock 28gram rollers.  I started with the OEM rollers, then changed to 26gr sliders, then finally settled on the 24gr sliders. I love the feeling when accelerating from a stop. A side benefit was lessor vibration on take-off.

Thanks for the info guys. I guess I will cross this road when I come to it...  

Glenn, If you want to see how the 26g sliders improve the acceleration you are more than welcome  to take our 09 for a ride.

I went to the 26g two years ago and I am also happy with the results.
Except that the yellow light on the dash comes on after a few hundred miles and needs to be turned off. No biggie. I still run circles around most Harley s and Burgmans.
The Big Daddy G/W can not run away from me until we get up around 80 or 90 mph. and that goes for most BMW I play with.:lol!: 

I guess most don't understand my point. My scoot accelerates fine. I can dust most H-D's etc. but don't, am way past that. And if my understanding is correct; installing sliders other than 28g (basic stock) will adversely affect fuel mileage... With gasoline over 3 bucks a gallon and my putting a lot of miles on my SWing this is more of a priority. Or am I missing something???

I put in the 24 gram sliders about a year ago when I changed the belt, just to see if the RPMs and the vibration would go down, They both did.

I don't ride hard, but the improved acceleration to get away from traffic (when needed) is a plus. I don't pay attention to the mileage since my Swing is primarily for stress management.

For $60.00, and the opportunity to learn more about the mechanical workings of your bike, I definitely think that it is worth it.

GHM-PM -

There is one thing you might be missing. With rollers, a very small part of the rounded surface touches the friction plate, and so it takes a certain amount of force to engage. The RPMs have to be at a certain level, given a certain weight of the roller, in order for it to engage properly and lock that friction plate in place.

Sliders are shaped differently. Instead of a rounded surface, they present a flat surface to the friction plate. It makes a larger traction patch. Therefore not as many RPMs are required, and not as much weight is required to achieve the same amount of friction against the plate. So you can have a lighter slider that does the same thing as a heavier roller.

Because the variator is engaging at different RPMs, it is also engaging at a different spot in the "power band" of the engine. And, of course, different riders weigh different amounts, and carry different amounts of gear with them in the trunk and top box, and all of these things affect the ride.

The result is that the difference between rollers and sliders, and sliders of different weights, creates a very individual experience. Nobody can say that one particular setup is best for everyone. They can say which one worked out best for them, and that might or might not apply to someone else. Each person has to try out different setups and decide which one they like best.

You're saying that you are happy with how your bike runs with the stock rollers, and that is perfectly fine. Of course, you haven't tried sliders, so you can't say that they won't work better for you.


People install sliders for a perceived improvement in acceleration, smoothness of clutch engagement, vibration, and gas mileage due to lower RPMs.

At $60 plus shipping for sliders, and at best 3-4 MPG improvement if you see any at all, it would take a while to get your investment back and then see a cost savings on gas moving forward.

If you're happy with how your scooter performs, then there's no reason for you to pursue this.


I get that you don't see a need to make this change to your bike. But it kind of seems like you're trying to tell the people who made the change, and are happy they did, that they wasted their time and money. I don't feel that way at all.

Scoundrel, that is what I have been waiting to hear! HOW they work. Haha all I have heard is subjective (that is fine) but I wanted to know the exact difference... Thank you.

I am NOT trying to convert anyone, just wanting information. 60 bucks is not a big investment (considering the price of the scoot). And for the record I kind of let it drop and it got rekindled again so I asked more questions.

Thanks for the information!!!

Glad I could help. Happy scooting!

Scoundrel wrote:

GHM-PM -


Sliders are shaped differently. Instead of a rounded surface, they present a flat surface to the friction plate. It makes a larger traction patch. Therefore not as many RPMs are required, and not as much weight is required to achieve the same amount of friction against the plate. So you can have a lighter slider that does the same thing as a heavier roller.

I have to step in, because your description of how sliders work is, well, attempting to not be insulting, incorrect.
I am too lazy to spend 10 minutes typing, so have a look at the video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxcQGmT8EJc

It's all about the ramp angle and the distance between the outer and inner sheaves of the drive face plates. The sliders squeeze the plates together at different rates than the rollers. It has nothing to do with contact area or traction. The weight of the roller or slider is the same 28g. You can get lighter rollers or sliders for less squeezing action between the plates which raises the gear ratio (higher reduction) for increased rpm and thus faster acceleration.

Scoundrel wrote:

People install sliders for a perceived improvement in acceleration, smoothness of clutch engagement, vibration, and gas mileage due to lower RPMs.

It's not perceived, it's factual. By raising the engagement rpm of the front drive faces, the engine is closer to its torque peak of 5k rpm. Stock rollers engage at about 2500 rpm, which is too low and causes lugging, felt as vibration, and belt slap of the drive belt against its aluminum housing. The reason Honda never used sliders in the first place is due to patent issues and royalty costs to pay Union Manufacturing. That's why many scooter owners of many different makes and models have switched to Dr. Pulley sliders. I'd suggest you install a set and then report back before telling everyone that their benefits are perceived in the mind of the beholder.

Regarding the contact area thing, that is what I was told, and I had no reason to disbelieve it. So I guess it's wrong, and it's more about when and how much the sheaves move. OK. Fine.

But your attempt to not be insulting kind of broke down in your second e-mail. You came across as quite arrogant, actually, with your last sentence. If you read my posts carefully, you'd know that I DO have sliders installed, and I said more than once that I am happy with the difference they made on my bike. I never said that those changes were all in someone's head. Read the thread again and see for yourself.

And, since when is is not possible to perceive factual changes? I did not say that these were imaginary changes, I said they were perceived changes. As in, people perceived that there was a change. The fact of perceiving a change does not invalidate the change, unless you're talking Quantum Physics and Schroedinger's cat or something.

Scoundrel wrote:

But your attempt to not be insulting kind of broke down in your second e-mail. You came across as quite arrogant, actually, with your last sentence.

Sorry. My intention was neither to be arrogant nor insulting.

OK.

Sorry for the incorrect information. I guess I never stopped to think about the fact that the two halves of the variator do not spin independently of one another.

So the sliders simply force the halves apart at different RPMs than rollers, and different weights of the sliders are a way to get more variety in when that happens, right? Or is that oversimplified?

Scoundrel wrote:

OK.

Sorry for the incorrect information. I guess I never stopped to think about the fact that the two halves of the variator do not spin independently of one another.

So the sliders simply force the halves apart at different RPMs than rollers, and different weights of the sliders are a way to get more variety in when that happens, right? Or is that oversimplified?

That's it in a nutshell, but backwards. The sliders, or rollers, on the inside sheaf of the drive face, force the inner sheaf against the outer sheaf by centrifugal force. The tighter the sheaves are forced together, the higher the belt rides between the sheaves. When the belt is near the outer circumference, it is turning faster than if the belt was down deep inside the sheaves. Faster belt speed equals lower engine rpm and higher final drive speed. Make sense?

Did you install your sliders, or did someone else? The reason I ask is if you installed them, you'd see very quickly how the variator works by squeezing the belt as engine rpm rises. If you didn't, check this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yRskb0BYwE&list=PL761D82D2F328FA0D&index=2

I meant the sliders/rollers force the halves of the variator apart, which in turn makes the two sheaves get closer together. Still backwards? The rest of it makes sense.

I'm familiar with how that works with sprockets and chain, and it carries over to a CVT system, more or less.

Scoundrel wrote:

I meant the sliders/rollers force the halves of the variator apart, which in turn makes the two sheaves get closer together. Still backwards?

To me, still backwards. The halves are closest together when the crankshaft is not turning. As the crankshaft starts to rotate faster, centrifugal force moves the rollers or sliders outwards, forcing the inner plate outwards towards the outer plate. This reduces the space between the plates. Did you look at the video?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3yRskb0BYwE&list=PL761D82D2F328FA0D&index=2

Yes, I did watch the video, and I think that we're not in conflict, just not understanding one another properly. I do understand how it works, now that we cleared up that bit about the rollers not actually needing to have a friction surface.

I'll give it one more try, but it's really not a big deal and we don't have to hash it out if this doesn't work. I went and grabbed my service manual to get the terminology right.

The "ramp plate" provides the "ramp" for the sliders to move upon.
The "movable drive face" holds the sliders, and moves outward away from the ramp plate (this is the movement that I described as the halves of the variator moving apart).
This motion moves the movable drive face away from the ramp plate, and at the same time, toward the "drive face" (not the movable one).
The belt, which is caught between the drive face and the movable drive face, is pinched and moves out toward the edge of the drive faces as they come together.

I think the source of the confusion is this: I was only thinking of the ramp plate and the movable drive face as being "the variator" but that is incomplete because the outer drive face is part of the variator too. So one part of the variator is forced apart, and the other part of it is forced together (pinching the belt).

Bleah.

Well anyway, I think we've probably beaten this thing to death now.

Well theres some answers to my question, so as I perceive it is
If these sliders are fitted the bike will accelerate faster have lower revs when cruising and may be better on fuel
Ok Where do I get them from and is there a how to on the installation of such units
Rob

Thanks for the discussion guys. I have a better understanding of it now.

Here's a video on how to install rollers. Buy them from buggyparts.com

https://youtu.be/dq4Y2rEJdSw

Buggyparts.com appears to be a squatter website. I think you want buggypartsnw.com.

Specifically, here: https://www.buggypartsnw.com/index.php/dr-pulley-products/dr-pulley-slider-weights/400cc-and-higher/dr-pulley-slider-weight-28x20-for-600cc.html is where I bought them from.

Interestingly, 26gr seems to be missing from the drop-down list of weight options. I may be responsible for that. I bought a set, and then two of my friends bought Silverwings, and each of those friends also bought 26gr sliders at my suggestion. We may have depleted their stock temporarily. Oops.

Sorry, buggypartsnw.com
My memory needs new RAM

I bought 24gram sliders from here: http://www.drpulley.info/shop/product_info.php?products_id=570

Full range of weights available: http://www.drpulley.info/shop/index.php?cPath=47_58

Good service too

More topical questions because I'm not after quicker acceleration, but the lower
revs at highway speed are attractive.  (As an aside, older Burgman 400s
do not enjoy lower highway revs with sliders because (as I understand it) the ramp
plate won't allow the slider to travel any further than the rollers without
modification--and that modification has drawbacks.)  So until I read
the lower engine revs at freeway speeds, I was not at all interested in
sliders for my Silverwing.

Now, on to the acceleration behavior.  I despise high revs on takeoff.
I typically ride my Burgman with very little throttle opening until
lockup and only then roll on the throttle.  In contrast, my female
friend just grabs a big chunk of throttle from a stop. One result
of our differences in riding from a stop is that her clutch shoes
were toast at 25K and mine are still fine at 44K.  That is all sort
of a digression, but I think it shows that I'm on the edge here.  
(I also typically shift my SV650 from first to third and third to
fifth AND I added one tooth to the countershaft sprocket.)

So my big question is whether sliders are going to have my
Silverwing sounding like a 600cc supersport at takeoff, or
is the squid sound optional as long as I continue with small
throttle openings?

Helpful replies are welcome. Others, not so much.  
You know who you are.

Ever since I installed Dr pulley 24 g sliders my rpm varies up and down by 10 k rpm and my v light keep coming on and I constantly have to reset.Do others have this problem ? Would 28 gram sliders solve my V light from lighting on constantly? I am thinking on going back to the stock roller if this problem keeps happening.Any one else have this problem ?

I'm running 24 gr sliders and have never experienced any of what you have, tinman. I don't think your rpm vary up and down by 10k rpm, maybe 1k rpm. Obviously, something is not right in your drivetrain. You may have worn/grooved inner or outer drive faces, a faulty or worn belt, etc. Maybe your driven faces/clutch have an issue. No way of knowing without inspecting.

For lowkey, the more you twist the throttle on takeoff, the higher your rpm will start out. If you don't want your engine revving over 2.5k at takeoff, then just roll the throttle on gently. The nice thing about the sliders is that if you want/need great initial acceleration, it's there with the sliders. With the stock rollers, you get a lot of belt slap and vibration along with moderate acceleration.

Big bird ,you are right  1 k not 10k .The belt and sliders were installed at the same time ,and the drive face were cleaned  and a light sanding .I have 50 k kl on the clock.The only difference that might cause the rpm spike is my Trigg trike conversion that was done at the same time of the new belt and sliders.the trike resistance to the wind might cause more stress on the drive train. Others that trike there Swing can chime in if they have the same problem. I will look in to getting new drive clutch if things get worst .

tinman wrote:

the drive face were cleaned  and a light sanding .I have 50 k kl on the clock.The only difference that might cause the rpm spike is my Trigg trike conversion that was done at the same time of the new belt and sliders.the trike resistance to the wind might cause more stress on the drive train.

Sanding the drive faces could do it. Just taking a 'thou off each face will cause a discrepancy in the expected and measured rpm difference between the engine rpm and the VSS in the rear wheel. Why did you sand the drive faces anyway? If there was a ridge built up in the faces then it's time for new faces. Sanding them down to bring them level just reduces the distance between the faces and will change your overall gearing. A ridge of belt debris is best removed by dissolving with brake cleaner. I doubt if a trike kit would do anything unless there was something changed, such as the final drive ratio.

Big bird ,the sanding was ever so lightly with  emery cloth .It might be the problem but what about the rpm . At 100 klph some time the rpm is at 4600 and the next time it is 5500 at 100 klph.I was thinking that the sliders might be sticking now and then.Come spring time I will install my stock rollers and see if there is any change,then i will look for a new drive clutch if the there is no change.If I maintain the speed at 100 klph or less the V light does no go on,At 110 klph or more the V light will go on.