Recent dealer repair and then this steering issue...

I have a 2001 Silverwing with 6000 miles on it. 3 weeks ago I had a new set of steering stem bearings fitted by a local Honda motorcycle dealer. Because I only ride 500-1000 miles each summer the lubrication in the old bearings had dried out creating the ‘centre grove’ effect that relates to these bearings. Once the repair was carried out the centre groove effect has disappeared.

Since having that work carried out I have only ridden 34 miles in the last 3 weeks, 10 of those back from the dealership. But a couple of days ago I started experiencing a very severe steering issue, having not used the bike for a couple of weeks before that.

If you watch this video you will see what happens within a second or two of letting go of the handle bars at around 30 mph. I should point out that my hands are only centimetres from the grips to regain control just in case anyone thinks ‘that’s a bit daft’.

www.vimeo.com/75099836
Password (lowercase): sw

Obviously I intend to go back to the dealer over this, but I am looking for some advice first.

Even when I am sitting on the bike (engine off) and I freewheel it slowly forwards there is a kind of wobble and slight bumpiness in the steering. Initially I wondered if there was a defect in the wall of the tyre, but as the video shows there is not. The back tyre is also A ok. If the bike is stood still and the front raised the side to side steering movement seems smooth enough. If I stand in front and grip the front tyre between my knees and try to move the handle bars I can’t detect any play.

Unfortunately the bike is, in my opinion, far too dangerous to ride any distance at the moment. The video above was made at low speeds and even then I very felt nervous given the uncharacteristic handling I was experiencing. So obviously the bike will need to be picked up on a trailer.

But how should I approach the dealer over this? If it is a case of being down to their faulty workmanship then it’s a pretty big cock up. If this had suddenly come on at 70 mph I hate to think of the consequences. But equally I don’t know that it definitely relates to their recent repair. Yes it’s a heck of a coincidence given the steering work just carried out and the mileage covered since, but I don’t want to jump to conclusions. But equally once I hand the bike back to them I can never be 100% what the actual cause is.... whatever I am told.

So can anyone give me an idea of what the fault could be and how best to proceed?

Many thanks.

PS I've just been reading the other recent steering wobble thread and I should point out that there is a night and day difference in the handling since this suddenly came on. It's not as if I didn't notice it before the repair. Also for the record I'm running on a set of Diablo tyres that are no more than 3 years old and have covered around 1500 miles.

If it didn't have this wobble before the repair and it started doing it within a few miles after the repair then I would suspect the last repair. Return it to the dealer to resolve.

My guess would be that one or both of the new steering head bearings was not seated completely when they were replaced. After riding the scooter a few miles those bearings have now seated. The bearings probably have some clearance that shouldn't be there and which could cause handling problems.

A readjustment to remove the clearance will probably solve the problem.

Your wobbling is a common problem. Mine does the same thing only while decelerating at slower speeds. Solution? Don't take both hands off the bars. Some have reported elimination of the wobble by replacing the tires.

This issue stopped when I replaced the front tyre.

Ofer Rothmann

Thanks guys, but I would be very surprised if this is a tyre issue. The wobble I'm experiencing is not minor. You can feel it through the bars even with your hands firmly on them. Also my tyres are good quality (Diablos), relatively new, have low miles and show no signs of distortion. Given the recent work on the steering (and no wobble issues before) I am pretty certain the two are connected.

With the front wheel off the ground,hold the forks near the spindle & test for forward & backward looseness,if present the bearings need properly adjusting.

This may be a shot in the dark, but I used to get a very slight front wheel wobble if I took one hand off the bars. When I had new tyres fitted, I had Puncture Safe put in, and it seems to have cured the problem.

Graham

The low speed wobble is a common complaint that is almost always solved by a tire balance or tire replacement. Once in awhile the cure is the steering stem bearings, witch you have already done. I would balance the front wheel and if that didn't work I would live with it until you need a new front wheel.

Certainly take this problem back to the dealer. And don't allow them to brush you off with a tire balance or tire cupping explanation. It wasn't that way before they serviced it.

It may be nothing more than the nex bearing needing adjusting after seating in.

model28a wrote:

I would balance the front wheel and if that didn't work I would live with it until you need a new front wheel.      

I had the wheel balanced and still got some wobble. Puncture Safe eliminated the wobble completely.

Graham

Just spoken with the dealership. They said on this type of repair (steering stem bearings) the head brace can end up going one of two ways afterwards either 'loose' or 'tight'. In my case they believe it has gone tight. Consequently they are prepared to pick up the bike and make appropriate adjustments all free of charge, but I will need to go and collect the bike at the end of the process. That will obviously involve some time and expense on my behalf since they are 10 odd miles away. That said it's not a major journey, maybe an hour all in. I was surprised they weren't prepared to deliver it back but the way they spoke about it all over the phone gave me the impression they felt this often happens and it's in no way down to their repair. I have no idea if that's the case since I'm not particularly mechanical. What do others think?

I think if it were me,I would put my bike gear under the saddle & get a free lift into town when they collect the bike

Hmmm. Last time it took them 2 hours to replace the stem bearings since apparently a lot of the tupperwear (and maybe other bits) has to come off. Not sure if that's the case for head brace adjustments? Also they haven't guaranteed it will be done instantly when the bikes picked up or all in one day. What if their mechanic does it over the course of a day or two? Anyway I'm leaning towards collecting it on their terms. I'm afraid I don't know if they are trying it on and I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt. Also they are the only Honda bike dealership for miles in my area, so I don't particularly want to sour relations over an hour of my time and around £10 travel costs. That said I am still curious to know if they have cocked up re their initial work, since in the future I might travel that bit further to another dealer if I can't trust these guys.

Find another dealer .I don't think that  they replace the bearing with only 6 k miles on it. Swing are bullet proof.

To be fair to them the stem bearings are not their fault. I do less than 1k of riding a year. When I first had the bike it came with 3k on the clock and the steering was fine. But the centre groove effect was picked up in this year's MOT. The dealer knew exactly what it was and to their credit the groove effect was gone after they fitted the new stem bearings. They said it was my lack of use that had allowed the bearings to lose their lubrication. At first I though this was complete tosh with only 6k on the clock, but after reading around I found others who had encountered the same thing with low mileage older SW's. To be honest I never noticed anything was wrong with the steering before it was highlighted by the MOT tester. It's quite a subtle thing. In fact it's worth getting someone heavy to sit on your pillion seat whilst the bikes on the stand (to raise the front) and then moving the bars from side to side. If you notice a little groove dead centre then you too probably need some new stem bearings. Suggest you all give it a go when you can, as I said its quite subtle so you may be unaware.

wingnprayer wrote:

They said on this type of repair (steering stem bearings) the head brace can end up going one of two ways afterwards either 'loose' or 'tight'. In my case they believe it has gone tight.

Wingnprayer - I have the exact same wobble symptoms as you. My SWing has over 30000 miiles. My wobble feels subtle but makes slow speed manuvers very difficult. This has been going on for about 6000 miles. I have rebuilt forks, put on new tires, lifted up front end to feel for groove/play - and all checks out OK - but I still have the wobble. Might try USA equivalent of Puncturesafe - then adjust the tension on my steering bearings. The only thing I notice out of the ordinary is the steering turns without much force being applied - I am guessing to needs a bit more compression applied to bearings. Let us know which way the dealer goes (tighten or loosen) on the head bearing adjustment. Also, is your rear tire cupping (mine does - I think this is related in some way to wobble).

Hi : guys Quick question over the winter I would like to change the front fork bearings. Do you just change them or can you adjust them. Can you just tighten or do you have to replace them. Can this be done on my own. I was it the motor pool and I am handy. Thanks Tony the C

forkthem2002 wrote:

Hi : guys Quick question over the winter I would like to change the front fork bearings. Do you just change them or can you adjust them. Can you just tighten or do you have to replace them. Can this be done on my own. I was it the motor pool and I am handy. Thanks Tony the C

Stay tuned to this station. One of the members here is expected to post his recent experience at a DIY steering head bearing replacement

Tim

I had a  wobble this spring,when I let go the steering,wobble is at low speed.I tighten the bearing nut using the rear shock pin spanner, and finger tighten the lock nut.It was a easy fix,no money spent ,just my time . to greece the bearing ,loosen the the locking nuts and spray some greece ,hand tight the nuts 9 lbs of tork .Some access to the nuts by the right glove box ,or remove the front cowling for easy access. use a fish scale on the fork nut for tension side to side. 7 to 9 lbs.

Bit miffed, dealer had the bike in today and can't find anything wrong with it. To be fair they came and collected it and brought it back something, they previously said they wouldn't. So credit to them for that.

They also rebalanced the front tyre and I can see some new weights in situ. But at low speeds the wobble sensation is still there and it's quite obvious to me. It's really annoying because it definitely wasn't there before the recent stem bearings replacement. That's the only factor that has changed.

Whilst I appreciate the advice given about putting Puncture Safe in the tyre (and I may get around to that), I need to emphasise that before this repair the tyres were not an issue, so it would be a heck of a coincidence that out of the blue they've now become the cause at exactly the same time as these stem bearings were replaced.

Anyway not sure what to do next. The dealer is adamant there is nothing else they can do and everything is in check. If there's no final/good outcome I might just sell her next summer. Wouldn't want to keep riding her like this and I don't have time/money to troubleshoot it any further. Not the ideal outcome though:( 

Wingnprayer:
Do a google search on motorcycle wheel wobble. I can't remember the name, but there is extensive material on this issue by a british guy. Essentially, two wheeled vehicles experience wobble at low speeds, and it can be alarming ( as in your case ), but it is normal. Wheel wobble at high speed is another matter and even more alarming. I wish I could point you to the right spot, but I don't have the time right now. Don't waste your time and money on something that is inherent in two wheel riding. Same thing on a bicycle too. Keep one hand on the handlebars at all times !!
Jay.

Maybe you should ask the shop to reset the head bearings back out of spec so that the wobble will disappear? As many have said, now that your steering is adjusted correctly , welcome to the world of maxi scootering. It is what it is.

You have tried most everything else so as I said before, I would live with it until you need a new front wheel and see if it helps. I have seen it many times, I had it happen myself. I have even had it happen with a new tire and not go away until the new tire was replaced. If it is only at low speed and it goes away when you hold the handlebars jest keep a hold of the bars. Now if it happens at high speed that's a hole other subject.

From my recent experience with the same steering problem as in your first post ..........

wingnprayer wrote:

 the lubrication in the old bearings had dried out creating the ‘centre grove’ effect that relates to these bearings. Once the repair was carried out the centre groove effect has disappeared.

The symptoms you are now getting .....

wingnprayer wrote:

But at low speeds the wobble sensation is still there and it's quite obvious to me. It's really annoying because it definitely wasn't there before the recent stem bearings replacement.  

...... were quite possibly there before the bearings were replaced,but were masked by the original fault of the "centre groove" which require physical effort on behalf of the rider to overcome,this effort will have increased slowly over a period of time.

wingnprayer wrote:

To be honest I never noticed anything was wrong with the steering before it was highlighted by the MOT tester.

With new bearings running smoothly the steering will be far more sensitive than you have become accustomed to over the time that the "centre groove" has been slowly developing,so any imbalance will feel exaggerated.

Thanks Bern, I can see that's a possibility. Just wasn't expecting a slight wriggle feel with my hands on the grips. I guess I need to ride it for a bit to see if that's just extra sensitivity to the road or there is something more going on.

I brought the scoot with the fault & even in the short time I had been riding it learned to compensate for the "heavyness" of the steering,first ride on mine after changing the bearings was worrying,with the new bearings it felt like riding with a flat tyre,where even the slightest movement of the handlebars had a disproportionate effect,took it home & double checked everything as I was certain I had made an error somewhere,but found nothing amiss.
Having got about 100 miles on the clock since I am loving it,I no longer have to avoid every manhole cover,little hole,etc & the most major positive is that it no longer "tramlines" over tarmac repair patch edges (which there are loads of around here).
Stick with it for a week & let us know how you get on bud.

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:

forkthem2002 wrote:

Hi : guys Quick question over the winter I would like to change the front fork bearings. Do you just change them or can you adjust them. Can you just tighten or do you have to replace them. Can this be done on my own. I was it the motor pool and I am handy. Thanks Tony the C

Stay tuned to this station. One of the members here is expected to post his recent experience at a DIY steering head bearing replacement

Tim

The member in question is a "one finger typist" so is doing a word document to copy & paste into the forum,strip down & recheck everything will be tomorrow night then photo's & rebuild over the weekend,the taper roller bearing conversion is not really a "biggie" but I need to redo a couple of things to allow for members that do not have easy access to machine tools.Bear with me I will get there,probably mid weekish

The Bern wrote:

.Bear with me I will get there,probably mid weekish

Look forward to your post and thanks for making the effort!