Malossi (white) Contra spring 17Kgs

So.. got your attention have I ?

For the last 2 weeks I have been experimenting with "Strapadicktome" commercial tuning items for my 09 Swing.

Disclaimer... this is my personal journey in to modifying my scooter. It is not a lesson in how to do it and I will not be held responsible for any one copying or messing up their scooter!

That said I do have rather a surprise.

Based on the mods I did to my first scooter, a 1999 Suzuki Burgman an 400.... New belt, DrPulley 26g rollers, and a carb tune up.
BTW, changing the rollers was an amazing upgrade and so worth the difference in performance with little loss in economy.

To set the stage a bit of infill is needed. on acquiring the Swing I decided to strip down the CVT(19.5Kmls on the clock) to "have a look", I also removed the driven clutch assembly to look at the clutch plates.


As you can see from the picture the needle bearing in the rear was looking rather black, so I acquired a replacement to fit when the Malossi spring arrived.
I was unable to find a seller for Dr.Pulley rollers for a Swing but I did find TechPulley Flying rollers 26g, apparently same gene pool father and son.
Once fitted it was off to test them...Drive engagement RPM rose from 2000 to 2500 over stock rollers. I was most disappointed, yes there was an improvement in acceleration but no where near the same level of difference as the Burgman and it was too buzzy/revy around town(Goldwing economy) poor. Also as others had noted the odd chirp/squeek from the CVT when you hooned it. I also fitted a Booster Plug fuel injection device but I have already sung about it's virtues in a previous post reply. *(Link to Booster Plug info below)

A few pictures on replacing the driven plate Contra spring.



The needle roller bearing can either be knocked out with a suitable long screwdriver(if it's not being kept) from the other end or use a blind puller 27mm.
I used my clamp system to push the new bearing in with a socket WARNING.....THERE IS NO BLIND STOP FOR THIS BEARING(SEE PICTURE) so push gently, I went maybe 2.5mm to far but the bearing has spare land on the shaft both ways but I will keep an eye on it until the blind puller turns up to correct things.
The threaded bar for the clamp is standard 12mm high tensile threaded bar cut to the appropriate size, it has to compress 7" into less than 4"to remove the circlip holding the spring on.

Time for another test ride ooh, drive engagement is now 3000rps and it goes up the road like a cat on fire, great for the traffic light Grand pre or the drag strip but watch the fuel gauge fall

* https://www.silverwing600.com/t11352-booster-plug?highlight=“Booster”

Sorry ran out of space.
One big surprise was no matter how hard I hooned it there were no squeaks or chirps from the CVT, the Malossi spring cured it!
So a mod too far unless you are a drag strip freak, or own a petrol station.
After much thought(I did consider a Malossi fly clutch but £250 ouch) I decided on a re-think, I wanted to drop the drive take up back down to 2500 so I put the stock(20Kmls 28g) rollers back in.
WOW what a difference, (standard rollers are quieter) take up back to 2500rpm but you could realy feel the drive kick in without screaming it.
At 30 mph revs are 3200 but at 4500 rpm your doing 55mph/60mph depending on terrain. 6500rpm is 80+mph after that it's your license but 3 figures is to easy to reach end stopping.
After several days of testing I am well happy with the outcome as is.....

So my best advise has to be, forget the rollers, forget the Malossi fly clutch. Buy the Malossi white spring(cheapest item in the "strapadicktome" upgrades) and a Power plug fuel devise is all that's required
to transform your Swing.

I hope this is of use to others, it was a complete surprise to me, if you ain't tried it, don't knock it.

Be safe, be seen!

Thanks for sharing this mod. A job well done by the looks of it. Very useful pictures and good quality. It's also interesting to see different types of improvised tools used by our members.

I'm sure that needle bearing does have a 'blind-stop' though.

I don't think it does, there was no added resistance pushing the bearing in until I stopped to look and decided to stop where it was.
check the pre-removal picture enclosed. Either that or it was not pushed in far enough in production.

I'll just reiterate though that it was the best mod + the fuel pug that I haver tried to date, tempted to try and get some 30g rollers as the engine has more than enough power to run them and the Malossi spring holds the drive gearing right where you want it.

I would say that your new needle bearing is seated correctly, i.e. against the blind stop.

30g rollers? Wow! Please let us know if you do decide to go with them. Would love to know if your theory works.

Ps, Anyone seen an advert for 30grm rollers ? ?

JohnyC wrote:

Ps, Anyone seen an advert for 30grm rollers ? ?

Send an email to Dr Pulley directly. Tell them you were referred by the Silverwing600 forum and that you would like a set of 30gm Round Roller weights (RR2820-8 30gm) for your Silverwing. If they don’t have them on the shelf they will gladly custom make a set for you.

https://drpulley.co/

I did complete service and installed Malossi white spring almost 2years ago, at approx 12k miles. The Only CVT mod on scooter.
I tried both 28gr DRP sliders and oem stock weights, but I preferred the way the oem 28gr weights worked overall, acceleration, CVT shifts, etc., so I installed a new set. My average MPG is still 55mpg.

BTW, the Malossi spring virtually eliminates the SW600 belt slap. IMO, the rest of the CVT parts in the SW600 perform good and are well built quality parts, more than adequate. Can see buying and aftermarket Malossi clutch for double the cost of oem parts needed to refresh clutch.

PSA...

The common practice when installing a stronger/stiffer contra spring, is to increase the weight of the variator weights to maintain similar cvt operation, so actually by just installing the Malossi (cheaper) contra spring you get similar results as to installing a $$$ lighter weight set, in other words, if you want better acceleration, stay with stock rollers or install "same weight as stock DRP sliders", installing heavier weights or DRP sliders will return similar to stock performance, but better slow speed drivability. You will always get the high gear shift, lower rpms at highway speeds with sliders.

BTW, there's no physical stop or ridge to stop needle bearing, according to "Stefano Bonacasa" (towards end of video) there's plenty extra area on shaft to accommodate some variation of placement, IOW if bearing is on the hardened shaft chromed area you are ok.

https://youtu.be/M8KclLwsYo4

BTW, my SW600 clutch engages at approx. 2,200 rpms, did you disassemble and clean clutch components, Sand/clean clutch bell and shoes

Firstly, thank you Cosmic for the link, finally one that A.. works and B my security software doesn't have a head fit over.
Thanks also to zrx212 for your input.
I'm already back running 28gr stock rollers(abeit they have 20k on them, prob explains the diff in take up).
I want to test 30gr rollers and maybe 31gr on my set up, Cosmic said they would make them if I contacted DrPulley so I've sent them a Email but their on holiday in 2 days for a week or so. Not expecting a quick response but I will post as and when.


Ps. I will draw the bearing back the 2mm when my decent blind puller turns up(thats another story).
Pps Still waiting for the Hyper-pro fork spings to.
Be safe, be seen!

I'm curious. When I replaced that needle bearing I pulled it into place using my home-made puller, I turned the nut until I felt some resistance. I then 'snugged' it up to the blind stop. The arrows below show the blind stop:






I will double check by looking at my spare assembly. It it something Honda changed after 2001-2002 models?

I'll pull my NIB out tomorrow and double check, I have to admit, I pushed mine in to exact position as old one

All this talk about the bearing position had me , so I disassembled the SW today to double check, took several measurements, my roller bearing is exactly 1mm (.040") in from the end of beveled area on the pulley, the needle rollers contact the hardened area of the transmission input shaft 4mm (.150") from inside edge, clutch shoe imprint is dead center of bell, BTW, hardened area is approx. 5-6mm longer than bearing contact area, all good

Had a chance to take a look at my NIB pulley assembly, bearing is installed nearly flush with end of bevel, maybe .5mm (.020") approx. below it, all visual assessment thru still sealed plastic bag, didn't want to break it and make it a used part, JIC I need to resell it, etc.

JhonyC , be careful with the type of blind bearing puller, to move the needle bearing, they are not necessarily designed to save the bearing , look at this diagram I put together from mine and others ideas, several guys have successfully removed and reused the very costly needle bearing on Burgman 400 using this method, when only the roller bearing was bad or to install a better double sealed one, just like I have done on both Burgman and SW600. IAC, similar DIY tool will work on either scooter.

Well, I find Mr Honda's puzzles most intruiging. Looking at JohnyC's image it looks to me that there might be a gap where the arrow below shows. This would mean that the bearing is not quite up against the blind stop.



If that is the case, then the fitting of the bearing has a tolerance factor of a few millimetres.

Quite unusual for such an important piece of hardware.

Thanks again for the input zrx222, I have decided on reflection and Loosemarbles* comments that the bearing can stay right where it is, I do have a backup bearing in stock. They were possibly the last 2 available in stock in the UK that I could find.
As to Blind Pullers, I personally use a Sealey AK 716 set.

Ref experiments with heavier weights Vs Malossi spring will be delayed as DrPulley start shipping from 30th of Jan, but I think I will get both 30 gr and 29 gr rollers, just to be anal.
But at present tbh I am well pleased with the setup and despite the grunt increase it's more economical both in the city and longer journey roads probably because you don't need to wring it's neck. It just feels right.

Be safe, be seen!

Just a quick update.
I am very happy with the set up as is, 28g round rollers and the Malossi spring, better economy and more grunt from the off but I have decided to bite the bullet and purchase a Malossi Fly clutch and a new Bell(oem) as a kit because I can make the clutch squeal if I gun it off the line with a wheelie. Probably not how most owners ride but it needs curing. Looking at clutch pictures there is obvious wear to the pads and groves in bell.
I think I will also get some DrPulley 28g, so I can faff to my hearts content. lol yes i'm bored.


Be safe, be seen!

JohnyC wrote:

(Snip) I have decided to bite the bullet and purchase a Malossi Fly clutch (Snip)

Do check into Dr Pulley’s HiT Clutch as well. I’ve been very happy with my HiT clutch.

Thanks Tim but..
I did look into the Hit clutch at DrPullys but there currently out of stock/production with no date listed.
And as I want a clutch this month/ asap Malossi Fly it is..


Be safe, be seen!

Just a quick update.
Having just paid the import duty, the Malossi Fly clutch and Bell should arrive Wednesday, UPS permitting.
Total cost, the wrong side of £300. I will attempt to keep an open mind while testing.

Be safe, be seen!

Further update.
The Malossi Fly clutch is now fitted. here's a picture for comparison of parts.

As you can see by the picture the friction pads are slightly bigger in length, and width and a bigger dia.
Also different pivot point angles to the shoes and bigger springs which are located differently.



Not been in the best of health this last week so not done any performance comparisons yet, other than to say with the Fly clutch being lighter and stronger springs the take up has gone back up to 3000rpm from 2500 with stock clutch so it releases at about 15 Mph(lol you do free wheel a lot in traffic, but no big deal as take up is instant again).
Apparently the 30g rollers from DrPulley will be here Friday so I'm hoping the 30g rollers will lower the take up back down to 2500.
The Fly clutch is very smooth and instant in bite, no squeals chirps or vibes at all. Fuel consumption appears the same but no long trips yet.

So to re-cap as of now I am using stock 28g round rollers, Malossi White 17Kgs driven plate sping and Malossi Fly clutch and a Booster Plug fuel tuning.


Be safe, be seen.

Thank you for the comparison photo Johny. We’re all looking forward to your ride report(s) and assessment.

What black arts and wizardry did you use to remove the clutch bell?

The Malossi "Maxi Scooter" clutches are all very similar in the shape/architecture of the weights and springs, they come with the softest (white) springs, unfortunately they are not adjustable like the smaller scooter versions, IME they all have approx. 300-500 rpms higher engagement, not good for slow driving/traffic or lazy throttle applications. The Malossi clutch and contra spring will break-in and springs will soften some over time, it tends to lower clutch-in rpms. When you go to heavier rollers or heavier DRP sliders, it "should" help lower clutch-in rpms also, as the variator will close slightly quicker, turning rear pulley faster, thus causing clutch to spin-up faster.
 
There's DIY mods to the Malossi clutch to lower clutch-in rpms, but they are not for everyone, my Burgman 400 one is modified and works great

Burgman 400 Malossi clutch weight, bottom view.

I used the Loosemarbles approach to the problem.
To remove the Bell.

Then I used the old Bell as a spacer and a bag of big washers to push the new Bell on using the shaft tightening nut






Be safe, be seen!

Nice job there. Keep us posted on its behaviour and performance.

For those awaiting an update, sorry the "Jury's still out" for deliberation.
At present...
Running 26g DrPs, Malossi Fly clutch and the Malossi White spring and the fuel plug. Bit of a buzz box around town but launches like a rocket with no Squeals or chirps from the drive train, the Fly clutch just nails it....something the stock would not do without a lot of noise.
The other thing I have found is on freeway/motorway it runs at a lower rpm( 6k rpm = 85 mph) and will end stop the clock with ease at full beans. The round rollers I used were 6250 (30Gs) 6350 (28Gs)

Be safe, be seen!

Final update.
I have finally finished faffing around with different weights in the varaitor.
So the finished combination is as follows.
Dr.P 27g sliders, Malossi white contra spring and a malossi fly clutch. not so buzzy but goes off like a rocket.

30 Mph = 3100 rpm
70 Mph = 5800 rpm

Be safe, be seen!

That's about 400rpm above my OEM setup at 70mph. Not being so buzzy sounds like a good move. Worth the extra RPM.

JohnyC wrote:

I have finally finished faffing around with different weights in the varaitor.
Dr.P 27g sliders, Malossi white contra spring and a malossi fly clutch. not so buzzy but goes off like a rocket.
30 Mph = 3100 rpm
70 Mph = 5800 rpm

Interesting. I ended up with 28-gram Dr. Pulley sliders, OEM spring and Malossi Maxi Fly Clutch.

30 mph = 3000 rpm
40 mph = 4000 rpm
50 mph = 4250 rpm
60 mph = 4500 rpm
70 mph = 5200 rpm

Throttle response is good, far better than previous Silver Wings, but I wouldn't call it a rocket.

The 19-gram Dr. Pulley sliders made it a rocket; 24-gram Malossi rollers in Malossi variator were almost as quick.

Mileage is disappointing at 44.4 mpg's but that was half a tank and 100 miles. Will measure again with more miles.

While cleaning up my workbench, Turns out I forgot to change 2 of my Dr.P sliders from 26g to 27gs.
So here is a revised chart for.

27gs Dr.P sliders, Malossi white spring, Malossi fly clutch and a PowerPlug fuel enricher.

30/33mph = 3100rpm
50mph = 4100rpm
70mph = 5150rpm
Private road.
80mph = 5750rpm
90mph = 6350rpm
100mph = 6950rpm


Be safe, be seen!

That private road wouldn't be the M32 would it?!

Good attempt Loosemarbles, unfortunately the M32 has 4 average speed cameras high mounted.

I have a friend who's sons run a private racing lock up at Castle Coombe, was lucky enough to do a circuit at closing time, while checking the track for debris and spillages.

Be safe, be seen!

I suppose by comparison those speed/rpm values are indicative of the gearing ratios made by your mods;

OEM setup gives me:
50mph/4000rpm but at at 70mph/5500rpm.

The drop in rpm @ the higher speeds is definitely the results of the Dr.P sliders 27g. The 26g sliders were under OEM top end.

Be safe, be seen!

Ps. quick update. As were into good weather now I have remove the Power Plug enricher, had to re-adjust the tick over but plugs looking cleaner after a run now.
Didn't want to possibly wash the bores with longer summer rides.

QUESTION - I'm about to do the Malossi White Contra Spring, and bought Dr Pulley bushings. they sent 3; how many do I need/use???

Hi K-Hill.

Any chance of a photo of the "Dr Pulley bushings" or web link as I have no idea what they are and a Dr pulley site search brings up nothing ?

Awaiting your reply.

https://drpulley.co/product/torque-spring-washer-282001/

Looks like I might just need 1, but they sent 3 so I have some for later? Just want to do it once and do it right.

Thanks for the quick reply K-Hill.

Ok it threw me at first but your link explains it all I believe.
The thrust washer advertised is not an OEM part but an additional part offered by DrPulley to reduce wear between the driven plate and the spring.
Not sure as to why they offer it as I can find no reported issues unless it was an early model issue.
Malossi themselves do not appear to offer the washer as an addon.

That said, as you have 3 of them, then sure fit 1 of them if it is just a case of slipping it on before the spring goes on.

I will strip mine down to see if any wear is taking place as I want to play with the slider weights again anyway and try a modded OEM clutch compared with the Mallosi fly clutch.

Hope this helps.

Be safe, be seen!

Thanks JohnyC! I have it apart but the tool I got from Amazon is too short to re-compress the new spring, AND I can't get the old one out? Any tips before I head to a shop?

Is there a reason my old spring appears to be 'stuck' in the assembly? Am I missing something or is there a trick to get it out?

It binds itself to the plastic collar but it should come off with some twisting and turning.

Thank you LooseMarbles; I'll have a go at that shortly!

Hi K-Hill.

Loosemarbles is correct, it's just a tight fit.

Be safe, be seen!

JohnyC wrote:

Hi K-Hill.

Loosemarbles is correct, it's just a tight fit.

Be safe, be seen!

Well, I believe is one the "Stange Flaws" in the CVT, is the rear pulley assy. "Seal Collar or Spring Seat" (P/N 23237-MCT-000) the metal is too thin!, combine that with old or poor quality Honda OEM grease, lack of proper servicing, etc.    that will cause the sleeve to wear and deform perhaps quicker ??. When the sleeve deforms it binds the torque/contra spring !!

I found my Seal Collar very worn and deformed at just 11.5k miles(approx.). My spring also was extremely tight/bound on collar, even after installing all new parts, including new plastic sleeve (P/N 23238-MCT-000), it was still fairly tight    IME with other scooters, this plastic sleeve is there to reduce spring binding/friction, there's even ball bearing collar/seat kits that really work good.  So I sanded down the outside of my old plastic sleeve with several grits of sandpaper to get a barely snug fit, where I could spin spring by hand. I can tell if it alone or in part helped the operation of my CVT, since I did a complete service and white spring install, etc. But I don't see how it could not  A few pics helps, there's even a sample of failure if CVT servicing is ...

This is what a failed sleeve looks like, I believe this was past 50k miles? mine will get inspected/replaced at every belt change, is just $12.50 USD.

UPDATE - I got the Swing back together, thanks to all of you for your input! As for the 'washer', my spring sat in that plastic piece, so it WASN'T 'metal on metal', so I'm out $6 for the washer kit I didn't need. Looks like Honda though of that and addressed it. ALSO - It runs GREAT now! Like a 600cc scoot should, IMO. For what it's worth, I did Dr Pulley 26g sliders and variator bushings, and the Malossi White Contra spring. Not going to mess with it anymore, and my 50mph RPMs went from 4,500 stock, to 4,300 with the sliders snf bushings, to 4,100 with the addition of the Malossi White Contra spring. Filled up last night and will be tracking MPG. Last recorded (with just the sliders and bushings), 2-UP, was 52.3 MPG. Will update in a week or so after I run this tank down.

Thanks for the heads up zrx212.

Looks to me like a defective manufacture, we also don't get to see the state of the Plastic spring guide collar or if it was missing. (sits between spring and sleeve).

Be safe, be seen!

K-Hill wrote:

Thanks JohnyC! I have it apart but the tool I got from Amazon is too short to re-compress the new spring, AND I can't get the old one out? Any tips before I head to a shop?

Hi,I made this to change out the contra spring and it worked great ,a piece of alum channel,a flat plate and a piece of threaded rod,I believe the piece of channel I used was 2 1/2”x2 1/2”x2 1/2” x 2 1/2” length
It’s the tool on the right,the tool on the left is to hold the variator while you use an impact to remove the nut,re-torque the nut to 76ft-lbs


[url=https://servimg.com/view/20489607/29][/url]

Nice work, Johnbil09!  

I ended up modifying the Amazon-purchased tool by going to ACE Hardware, getting a threaded rod at a matched pitch to the one on the tool (actually the tool is metric but the rod is SAE, but so close it 'works'), cut the tool close to the base of it, and used a coupling nut to merge them together with enough clearance to get inside the assembly and still crank it down. I'll be cutting off the excess today.

(Somehow the top one turned clockwise. Tilt your head to the right. )

Good work lads!
"Necessity is the mother of all inventions"

Be safe, be seen!