US Market for Big Scooters, just the Burgman and maybe a Kymco?

I'm highly contemplating on having a twin or donor Silverwing considering that there's not much around.

I'm experiencing some annoying electrical issues with my Silverwing at relatively low miles only 26k miles like the rear brake lever not allowing the bike to start and the fuel gauge completely flashing empty despite topping off, I have just referenced the Trip Meter and filling up every 100 miles to be safe. I have already bypassed the kickstand switch because that was also leaving me stranded.

I dont trust the Burgman 650's electronic transmission and I'm not too sure about the Kymco AK550, I generally look around on eBay before committing to a bike. I got my Silverwing on a trade and knew nothing about the scooter. It's not perfect but it's very doable. I have a police Honda ST1300 as my other bike but I am thinking of selling it due to the abysmal fuel economy, I am averaging 24 MPG in combined riding, but I am slowly diagnosing it with new thermostat, new vacuum tubes, checking for brake binding and now I have new oxygen sensors but if it's still returning 24 MPG, I'm going to have to sell it and I can easily find another Silverwing here in California.

I also had the Yamaha Majesty 400, Yamaha SMAX 155, they were fun bikes but for my kind of riding it wasn''t enough power. I average 90 MPH on the Silverwing and it averages 40 MPG all day long even with city riding, idling. I really have no complaints other than I wish there were significant suspension upgrades because it doesn't like rough roads at all. I was considering a Yamaha Super Tenere or FJR1300 for that, but surprisingly the Silverwing gets used way more. (I don't have a car, it's been my only vehicle)

"I'm experiencing some annoying electrical issues ... like the rear brake lever not allowing the bike to start"

Pull harder. Not kidding.

Btw, since you are new to the bike, what you are calling the rear brake (left) is actually the front AND rear linked brake. I love that feature.

I'm on my sixth Wing and love the simplicity and reliability. I suppose there are lemons out there, by overall they are the Energizer Bunny of scooters. They keep going and going ....

Hi KawasakiGuy, regarding suspension mods.

Front forks are greatly improved by fitting Hyperpro progressive springs.
Rear shocks are greatly improved by fitting Haden or Yss progressive shocks.

Just depends if you feel confident to undertake the swap over.


Be safe, be seen!

Burgman AN 400 1999
Swing FJS600ABS 2009

For the ST, I would check the SMC (secondary master cylinder)- it’s a known issue on the ST1300 (you can check specifics on the ST-Owners.com forum) and if you’re dragging brakes, I assume it could result in the poor fuel economy- in general, an ST1300 should be getting near 50 mpg (at least upper 40’s).

As information, my Wing needed a new rear brake-starter switch last year. It has about 25 K on it so...
Anyway, the part was inexpensive and easy to install (20 bucks or so). Good luck.

https://www.silverwing600.com/t12502-rear-brake-light-switch?highlight=starter+switch

If you are unsure of just hard to pull the left lever to enable a start, try this. Hold an ear close to the lever pivot screw and pull the lever. You should hear 2 faint clicks. The first click is the brake light switch working ( watch the rear lights) The second click is the switch that activates the ignition.
This should give a feel for the lever pressure you need.

Since you stated " knew nothing about the scooter " it could have sat outside for years for years, your dull windshield kinda tell that story, the issues you described are not uncommon on any scooter brand, even ones that been well kept/stored, in all cases it could be a dirty switch or bad contacts, especially, the fuel tank issue, fuel tanks and internal components will rust if left partially empty for a long time, again not a design flaw any motorcycle with a steel tank will do the same. Your "Electrical Issues" may be "Electrical Gremlins", AKA as dirty/poor connectors/switches throughout the scooter due to weather/age/exposure, etc.

IMO, real electrical issues are generator/rectifier/fuel injection/starter/fuel pump, etc. the "Gremlins" may cause those failures.

The left switch is an easy fix as I found out when mine played up the other year, Replace it, clean it, or as an emergency keep you going either short it with a bit of wire or swap over with the brake light connectors.
I've ever had a problem with any sidestand switches, except a dog of an old Kawasaki Z550 that some git had disconnected the sidestand switch. That bike ended up on it's side several time and tried to kill me once when I set off with the stand down before I realised what the previous owner had done. The thing is the switch worked fine.

KawasakiGuy wrote:

I'm highly contemplating on having a twin or donor Silverwing considering that there's not much around.

I don't see the maxi-scooters ever coming back from Honda. I think the market for them dried up. The last models built sat on some dealer showroom floors for two years at a discounted price and they still couldn't sell them. Even the PCX has been discontinued for 2023 in the US.

Chris Olson wrote:

KawasakiGuy wrote:

I'm highly contemplating on having a twin or donor Silverwing considering that there's not much around.

I don't see the maxi-scooters ever coming back from Honda. I think the market for them dried up. The last models built sat on some dealer showroom floors for two years at a discounted price and they still couldn't sell them. Even the PCX has been discontinued for 2023 in the US.

I believe Honda started making a 750 Forza’s for the US market

https://www.rideapart.com/news/448883/new-2021-honda-forza-750-debut/


$13,700 sticker price 
https://newsgear.pk/bikes/honda/honda-forza-750-price-in-usa/

Johnbil09 wrote:

I believe Honda started making a 750 Forza’s for the US market

https://www.rideapart.com/news/448883/new-2021-honda-forza-750-debut/

Assuming they did, it's not in their current available lineup, and they taylor this to the country you are from. The PCX is in there, but as a 2022 model. The ADV150, however, is a 2023 model but it does not have the updated engine that came out in the 2021 PCX.

https://powersports.honda.com

Chris Olson wrote:

Johnbil09 wrote:

I believe Honda started making a 750 Forza’s for the US market

https://www.rideapart.com/news/448883/new-2021-honda-forza-750-debut/

Assuming they did, it's not in their current available lineup, and they taylor this to the country you are from. The PCX is in there, but as a 2022 model. The ADV150, however, is a 2023 model but it does not have the updated engine that came out in the 2021 PCX.

https://powersports.honda.com

Click on the bottom link it clearly states that they’re available,I dunno would a sales mention a scooter that’s $13000 to people looking at 150cc $4000 scooters I think they’d be sold to people that come in and ask for it ,kinda like trying to sell them a Silverwing when they come in looking at the Cubs, a call to a dealership will answer this…

Johnbil09 wrote:

Click on the bottom link it clearly states that they’re available,I dunno would a sales mention a scooter that’s $13000 to people looking at 150cc $4000 scooters I think they’d be sold to people that come in and ask for it ,kinda like trying to sell them a Silverwing when they come in looking at the Cubs, a call to a dealership will answer this…

Where is this bottom link? I don't see anywhere on the US website where it says they're available - only in the U.K. and Middle East. They show a picture of it on the main scooter page with a note in the lower right of the photo that says "non-US model shown".

Chris Olson wrote:

Johnbil09 wrote:

Click on the bottom link it clearly states that they’re available,I dunno would a sales mention a scooter that’s $13000 to people looking at 150cc $4000 scooters I think they’d be sold to people that come in and ask for it ,kinda like trying to sell them a Silverwing when they come in looking at the Cubs, a call to a dealership will answer this…

Where is this bottom link? I don't see anywhere on the US website where it says they're available - only in the U.K. and Middle East. They show a picture of it on the main scooter page with a note in the lower right of the photo that says "non-US model shown".

https://newsgear.pk/bikes/honda/honda-forza-750-price-in-usa/

Johnbil09 wrote:

https://newsgear.pk/bikes/honda/honda-forza-750-price-in-usa/

Sorry, but that is not an official Honda website, it's from Pakistan and is a phishing website. So I just got off the phone with Dan, owner of the local Honda powersports dealership. We've been on a first name basis for over 25 years and bought 8 bikes from him in that time, including the last new Silver Wing I had. Traded it on my current 2021 PCX. The Forza 750 is not sold in the US.

I have never regarded the Silver Wing or Burgman 650 or the BMW C 650 GT as scooters. Guarantee I never called one a "scoot" in my life.

They are mid-sized motorcycles with automatic transmissions. Yes, I know technically the step-through design makes them scooters, but a scoot is one of those 50cc gnats I rent for $20 a day to buzz around Key West. I am a motorcyclist riding a machine that can take me across the country. I don't ride scooters.

By that definition, there are plenty of mid-sized motorcycles with automatic transmissions. Even the mighty Gold Wing has an automatic version, and a reverse gear. Easy enough to add a taller screen, highway pegs and top case to any automatic bike to give you the creature comforts of a scooter.

I'm intrigued by the BMW CE-04, an electric bike with a scooter look. It needs to evolve before I'll buy one because the price is too high and the range is too low.

Chris Olson wrote:

Johnbil09 wrote:

https://newsgear.pk/bikes/honda/honda-forza-750-price-in-usa/

Sorry, but that is not an official Honda website, it's from Pakistan and is a phishing website. So I just got off the phone with Dan, owner of the local Honda powersports dealership. We've been on a first name basis for over 25 years and bought 8 bikes from him in that time, including the last new Silver Wing I had. Traded it on my current 2021 PCX. The Forza 750 is not sold in the US.

Gotcha,I believe what a dealer says,I just found another article stating they’re not sold in the states so you were correct,….

Delray wrote:

They are mid-sized motorcycles with automatic transmissions. Yes, I know technically the step-through design makes them scooters, but a scoot is one of those 50cc gnats I rent for $20 a day to buzz around Key West.

I think they were more properly in their own class, called "maxi-scooters". Technically the PCX is not a scooter either, it's a 160cc motorcycle with an automatic transmission, and it goes 80 mph. I agree 100% that they get classed as "scooters" even though they're not, because of the step-thru design and drivetrain layout with a belt primary.

The trouble, as I stated, is finding the market for them in North America. People just won't spend $10 Grand on a 600 class motorcycle (which is what the last Silver Wings were at) that looks like a scooter. Even the Burgman 650 didn't sell well enough to justify keeping it in the lineup, and the Burgman 400 and 200 have been discontinued for 2023, with only leftover 2022 models still available.

The only thing that kept the FSC600 in the US market as long as it was, was the European market where they had a 400 that was never available in the US, but Honda could use the same tooling to build them. There has to be a profit in it for Honda, the FSC600 was long-in-the-tooth compared to the Burgman 650, they didn't sell well enough to justify updating it.

Same basic thing happened to the ST1100 and ST1300. Wife and I owned 6 different ST1100's over the years, but the primary market was Europe and Honda only imported 600 bikes per year to the US market. And their primary competition in Europe was BMW. Honda decided to exit that market because buyers aren't breaking the doors down to buy Sport-Tourers. In the US, their highest profit-margin bike is the Goldwing, and that's not selling very well either. Their bread and butter in the US is not motorcycles - it's four-wheelers and side-by-sides.

Their bread and butter in motorcycles is in Asia, and to them a motorcycle is what we call a scooter here. They sell 'em by the metric boatload over there. Europe is their secondary market, the US is on the tail end in sales and profits. And in the US, Harley-Davidson sells 30 Big Twin bikes for every Goldwing Honda sells.

Do you guys in the States not have the Integra? I know it's technically a NC 750X engine but SA has been selling them since around 2016 and they are starting to become affordable 2nd hand here. Still don't like the tiny 'boot' so sticking with my Swing as long as it will have me!

All of you overseas get the best bikes- that Integra looks nice but no, we don’t have that here.

If you ask me, there's just no rhyme or reason to Honda's marketing in the US. They seem to concentrate on the Goldwing and cruisers, and H-D totally dominates that market here. For a Honda dealership this is a hard sell. They require Dan at the local dealership to floorplan at least one Goldwing per model year. He's still got a brand new 2021 that he couldn't sell while the Harley dealership across town sells $32,000 Ultras as fast as they can get 'em out of the shipping crate. So as a result, Dan will do a dealer transfer on that 2021 Goldwing just to get rid of it while Honda requires him to floorplan a new 2023.

And then there's sportbikes - they require him to floorplan at least one CBR. These are targeted to the younger crowd, except in this day and age the younger crowd can't afford the insurance on a new CBR. A 22 year old rider will pay half of what the bike costs in insurance for one year because a 22 year old rider on a CBR600 is considered super high-risk.

What sense does this make from a marketing perspective? Honda seems to be stuck on what it used to be in the US market, and unfortunately those days are never coming back

There are loads of Honda NC750 DCT bikes for sale across the U.S. with automatic transmission and "integrated storage." That is a joke by Silver Wing standards; the storage is a little cubby in the gas tank that holds your wallet, sunglasses and dreams of more storage.

Plenty of electric motorcycles available. I'd be all over the BMW CE-04 electric (scooter/motorcycle) except the price with necessary options is absurd and the range is more absurd -- 80 miles claimed and apparently around 60 in real life. Keep evolving that one, BMW. I'm watching.

When Honda introduced the Gold Wing DCT (automatic), I was sufficiently interested to visit a dealer. I was standing in front of the bike with a salesman, talking myself into buying one, when I asked, "Wait, if this is a touring bike, how do you extend your legs fully?" He replied, "You can add highway pegs."

That was it. No Gold Wing for me. Honda charges $30,000 for a touring bike and they don't even build in full leg extension?! BMW's new K1600's have fantastic floorboards that let you stretch out fully but the bikes are not automatic.

We bought a Tri Glide because wife can ride it, where she can't handle the weight of an Ultra. The Tri Glide is basically an Ultra with a factory trike kit on it. For me, getting used to the Tri Glide was a little harder because it's not "natural" for cornering. But we like it overall and the Milwaukee Eight engine is absolutely fabulous - basically never have to run it over 2,500 rpm and it's got loads of power and torque. And gets pretty decent gas mileage in the mid-40's, two-up on it and fully loaded for touring.

We bought two PCX's and those are really good bikes too for running around, going to get groceries, or just fun riding on short trips. They get 100 mpg no matter how hard we ride them, lighter and more responsive than a Silver Wing and they run freeway speeds no problem at all. The PCX's get most of the miles put on them, we only basically ride the Tri Glide on longer trips, or sometimes my wife will take the Tri Glide to get groceries or something if she needs to haul a bigger load of stuff than what the PCX will carry.

We had several Silver Wings. But those would now be 10 year old bikes so we just evolved to keep up with the times. We traded both of the Silver Wings at the local Honda dealer for our new PCX's. My old Silver Wing is still sitting there two years later on the used lineup and they haven't sold it with only 60,000 miles on it. When I traded for the new PCX, the trade cost me $150 for the title, registration and paperwork - they basically traded even up and that included the higher "touring" windscreen on the PCX - genuine Honda part and not aftermarket. As far as I'm concerned, the PCX is a much better commuter bike, so for me it was one of the best deals I ever got on a new bike with a warranty.

https://www.airtecsports.com/inventory/2012-honda-silver-wing-abs-rice-lake-wi-54868-11838611i

I agree on US Market for big scooters really dead----I prefer new stuff with warranty and plenty of dealers. Lately getting hard to get the Honda you really want.....but there seems to be plenty of 4 wheelers.....not for me. In new market for bike/scooter this spring---84 in May and not interested in heavy stuff----would really like Super Cub 125----but where are they? PCX fine, too---but 7 and half shop hours for valve adjustment/check! 3 Navis available in Chippewa Falls---except for throwing leg over and lack of speed ok with me....might be fun.....but made in Mexico. Re make of Helix would be fine, too----I had 4 new ones.

To me, riding/trips important---never ride in groups

john grinsel wrote:

PCX fine, too---but 7 and half shop hours for valve adjustment/check!

I did the valves on our PCX's and it wasn't all bad. They are not shimmed valves so you don't have to pull cams. It has forked roller rockers with screw adjusters (four valves) and the timing marks for valve set are on the flywheel under the radiator.

The main part of the work is removing and re-installing the plastic to get to the valve cover.

Chris Olson wrote:

Johnbil09 wrote:

Click on the bottom link it clearly states that they’re available,I dunno would a sales mention a scooter that’s $13000 to people looking at 150cc $4000 scooters I think they’d be sold to people that come in and ask for it ,kinda like trying to sell them a Silverwing when they come in looking at the Cubs, a call to a dealership will answer this…

Where is this bottom link? I don't see anywhere on the US website where it says they're available - only in the U.K. and Middle East. They show a picture of it on the main scooter page with a note in the lower right of the photo that says "non-US model shown".

I stumbled on this today on YT I’m not sure if it’s legit

https://youtu.be/lHgotFOWGmg

Chris Olson wrote:

We bought a Tri Glide because wife can ride it, where she can't handle the weight of an Ultra. The Tri Glide is basically an Ultra with a factory trike kit on it. For me, getting used to the Tri Glide was a little harder because it's not "natural" for cornering. But we like it overall and the Milwaukee Eight engine is absolutely fabulous - basically never have to run it over 2,500 rpm and it's got loads of power and torque. And gets pretty decent gas mileage in the mid-40's, two-up on it and fully loaded for touring.

We bought two PCX's and those are really good bikes too for running around, going to get groceries, or just fun riding on short trips. They get 100 mpg no matter how hard we ride them, lighter and more responsive than a Silver Wing and they run freeway speeds no problem at all. The PCX's get most of the miles put on them, we only basically ride the Tri Glide on longer trips, or sometimes my wife will take the Tri Glide to get groceries or something if she needs to haul a bigger load of stuff than what the PCX will carry.

We had several Silver Wings. But those would now be 10 year old bikes so we just evolved to keep up with the times. We traded both of the Silver Wings at the local Honda dealer for our new PCX's. My old Silver Wing is still sitting there two years later on the used lineup and they haven't sold it with only 60,000 miles on it. When I traded for the new PCX, the trade cost me $150 for the title, registration and paperwork - they basically traded even up and that included the higher "touring" windscreen on the PCX - genuine Honda part and not aftermarket. As far as I'm concerned, the PCX is a much better commuter bike, so for me it was one of the best deals I ever got on a new bike with a warranty.

https://www.airtecsports.com/inventory/2012-honda-silver-wing-abs-rice-lake-wi-54868-11838611i

^^ That’s a really nice SWing…I wonder if it’s not selling due to the dealer’s high price- 60K miles might scare some people off, even if it is reliable

"My old Silver Wing is still sitting there two years later ... they haven't sold it with only 60,000 miles on it."

First of all, "only" 60,000 miles is like saying a new Mercedes Maybach is "only" $194,550. That's a lot of miles and a lot of money.

At 60k miles, the price of $4,600 is way out of whack, especially with a half-year riding season in northern Wisconsin (I went to grad school in Menomonie and rode a Suzuki 750 up there). Now, at 6,000 miles, the price is appealing and the bike could sell quickly.

Mileage isn't even shown on the web ad. I always find that annoying since it's such an important fact about a used bike. In this case, the dealer is actually setting up a prospective buyer for disappointment. Who's going to love learning that it has 60,000 miles?

Finally, in picking up original copy about the Silver Wing from Honda, the dealer is offering, in writing, a "One year, transferable, unlimited-mileage warranty." A good lawyer could have some fun with that one.

Dealer sounds asleep at the wheel. But good for you. Picking up a new PCX for $150 sounds like the deal of the decade. And if you put that many miles on a Silver Wing, double-good for you.

Delray wrote:

At 60k miles, the price of $4,600 is way out of whack, especially with a half-year riding season in northern Wisconsin (I went to grad school in Menomonie and rode a Suzuki 750 up there). Now, at 6,000 miles, the price is appealing and the bike could sell quickly.

They gave me $4,400 for it on trade, so they don't have much markup on it. I was pleasantly surprised when I traded it on the PCX. The genuine Honda "touring windscreen" was about $300 bucks for the PCX, plus 5.5% sales tax, etc..

My wife got hers in early August and I was jealous because she had a new bike and I didn't. She didn't even tell me she was gonna trade her Silver Wing on a new PCX. She stopped in there and seen it - they had just gotten the one in that she bought - she came home and got the title for hers and went back and traded for it. She comes riding in on a brand new PCX, and I'm like what the hell? I immediately liked it, and after I rode it I like it even more. So I went to the dealer and asked Dan, you got another one of those? I want one too. So he told me they had ordered two of them in February but the second one wasn't there yet. According to Honda's proposed schedule it should be there Aug 22. So I said I'll take it, he made up all the paperwork and said he needs a check for $152.96. I looked at it and couldn't believe it, so I wrote the check out.

Well, turns out it didn't actually get there until Sept 9. But they couldn't release it because they got the bike but they didn't get the certificate of origin from Honda. Without that they can't get a title generated for it. So I had to wait an extra week before I could pick it up.

I think I got a super good deal on it because the PCX arrived too late in the season to sell it, and it would've sat on the showroom floor in 2022 as a 2021 model. And here was somebody that wanted it and Dan could move 2021 inventory before 2022 models came out.

So it is what it is, but I was happy because I got the best deal I ever got on a trade on a new bike. 61,016 miles on the black one. By the time I got the white one home it had 19 miles on it. Cost me $153. If they don't move that Silver Wing this spring, it will go to the auto auction in the Twin Cities to dump it off their inventory.

Johnbil09 wrote:

I stumbled on this today on YT I’m not sure if it’s legit
https://youtu.be/lHgotFOWGmg]https://youtu.be/lHgotFOWGmg

It appears that is a concept created by a digital artist, not something from Honda.

https://www.rideapart.com/news/640917/honda-silverwing-1100-oberdan-bezzi/