Oily to bed, oily to rise. Rotella T6

Guys,



Rotella T6 5W-40 now has JASO MA certification, it is available at Wally world for $6 a quart. When my SWing reaches 3000 miles, in she goes. Let the flames begin, SWing

x

bigbird,


On other forums, mentioning your favorite oil can ignite a war, but I am finding the SWing group to be very friendly, civilized, refined. Thanks, SWing2010

Perhaps it's because most of us venture opinions rather than give advice.

SWing2010 wrote:

Guys,



Rotella T6 5W-40 now has JASO MA certification, it is available at Wally world for $6 a quart. When my SWing reaches 3000 miles, in she goes. Let the flames begin, SWing

Know why I would NEVER put Rotella in my Swing? It was DESIGNED and BUILT ("engineered") for DIESEL applications. i.e., LOW RPM applications. It was NEVER INTENDED for the 8500 RPM of your Swing. It got the JASO certification because 1) smart engineers at Shell pay attention to online goings-on (lots of scooters are using it) and 2) it doesn't contain friction modifiers, which almost ANY quality oil w/o FMs can get JASOed. Yes, it's a stong, quality oil. BUT - there are some reports of it FOAMING at high RPMs - meaning there's AIR lubricating your metal surfaces. I use Amsoil Euro Formula 5W40 EXCLUSIVELY in all 3 of my scoots. Meets (higher) Euro standards and DESIGNED for high RPM engines. $8.90 per quart and worth every penny. Save the Rotella for your pickup truck. P.S. Friction modifiers make the metal surfaces more SLIPPERY, and hence, engine turns w/less effort and hence, last longer and gets better MPG.

I know what you mean about starting a war on other sites. I'm not anal at all really about oil but I know I will never use Purple Royal. I used it once and I had to keep topping off my SWing since it seemed to use it alot. I basically just use Synthetic oil now and it seems to work good.

x

I was a diesel fitter for a while. My wife was in hospital and needed some clothes so when I went looking through the racks I would hold up various items and note "diesel fit her "

MA rating nice to have....but $6.00 a Qt? Honda oil is usually cheaper.


I use WalMart house brand 10-40 as the 10-30 is energy conserving and Honda says no to that.

My scooters from Honda, Suzuki and Yamaha have survived over 200,000 miles on it.

SilverWing seems to like it---I change every 60 days or 2000 miles. WalMart Filter every other oil change.

If I were not cheap, would use Honda Oil----like to help keep dealers in business, but do not want to pay thru nose.

My Suzuki, GS500E went 62,000 quick miles on WalMart brand also. No engine trouble.

John Grinsel Prove that my choice works=the miles run with no engine trouble. with the 250's a lot of time was wide open.

I tend to keep vehicles a VERY LONG TIME.
Ex. '94 Bronco, 359k miles (it is still running I see it all the time) , 84 Goldwing 158k miles, 82 honda 900F 97k miles (cams High comp pistons, etc at 10k miles) wrecked

Since i keep them for very long times/miles, i research for the best I can afford.
Synthetics is the ticket.
I sent one batch to Blackthorn labs (?) for analysis after 8k miles in the goldwing around 60k miles. It still had better sheer properties than Dino oil.

i run longer intervals on oils than 2k miles. Most of my roadtrips are 3-10k miles.

Compression checks on my high mileage engines seems to bear out that they are not loosing compression, thus very little wear.

That said, i have used several synthetic oils, in all of my vehicles.

Presently I am using Mobil 1 "High mileage" 10w40 in my bikes. I usually run 6-8k between changes but sometimes longer. I also use premium filters to catch the gunky particles.

I have used rotella T6 in the past, but did not feel it was as good as Mobil 1 High mileage. (this was in my M/C)

If you figure the cost of changing oil/filters. It is cheaper to run synths at longer intervals and still have better protection at the end than when you start with using dino oil.
I research what is added to them and how they feel to me while using.

That's my take on it.

MaxB (who has moved on from dino oils a LOOOONG time ago)
P.S. Yippee! my back and knees are not killing me this am. just letting me know they are hurting.

John & MaxB - great points and a great perspective from both of you.

Even though you guys present different preferences I can respect both. From my time on forums I've concluded that - Oil posts generally suck.

The best oil is: The one you like as long as you change it at the OEM recommended interval or less.

x

bigbird wrote:

For Slick-Tenn who is all about Rotella T6 foaming at high rpm:
Check your dipstick after running your Swing at redline. Any sign of foaming of the oil on the dipstick? I've never seen it. Maybe you have. Perhaps a picture to back up your hypothesis?

All modern oils have anti-foaming agents added to them.
I would be more concerned that water/antifreeze is somehow getting into the sump with the oil, rather than the oil itself.
MaxB

bigbird wrote:

john grinsel wrote:

MA rating nice to have....but $6.00 a Qt? Honda oil is usually cheaper.

$6 a qt for Honda oil? That's CHEAP! Try $15 for their 10W-40 from my local Honda stealer. No thanks.

Oil is such a crazy passionate topic. Just go to www.bobistheoilguy.com for all the reading you ever want to do about lubrication and more. Great reading, but it can make you nuts.

For Slick-Tenn who is all about Rotella T6 foaming at high rpm:
Check your dipstick after running your Swing at redline. Any sign of foaming of the oil on the dipstick? I've never seen it. Maybe you have. Perhaps a picture to back up your hypothesis?

Sorry! No pics. Don't recall where I've seen it, but have seen it from more than one source. And, it makes sense. I had a phonecon with a Shell engineer many years ago and Rotella was an offshoot project from Shell Rimula, which Shell developed for Caterpillar under contract for their heavy-duty applications. Yes, it's a very strong, quality oil, but was surely developed for low-RPM diesel applications. Because of its reputation and its low price (at wally-world), it has become popular in scoots. But, because it has no friction modifiers and has been known to foam at high RPMs, I simply cross it off my list.

It must have some anti foaming agents as per their own tech site:

http://www.shellusserver.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=223&page=6

How much i don't know.
Like I said I used it once and was not impressed.
MaxB

I wonder, for those of us who spend a lot of our riding in the upper band of the tachometer, would it be better for our scooters to have something heavier, like a 20w50 oil?

Oils are so good now that I suspect that the only thing the heavier oil would do is further reduce your gas mileage. I did a fast look on the web, and it appears that most car and motorcycle racing oil (High RPM) is either 10W-30 or 10W-40. The only racing oil I saw in 20W-50 was for the Harley V-Twins (lower RPM & air cooled).

Does that mean that I get worse gas mileage if I use 10W40 vs. 10W30?

Hammy wrote:

I wonder, for those of us who spend a lot of our riding in the upper band of the tachometer, would it be better for our scooters to have something heavier, like a 20w50 oil?

Another dilema,
The service manual mentions 10w30 and 10w40.
the engine is watercooled, thus the oil temps never are as high as an air cooled engine. No need for 20wxxx oils.

the enngine needs oil pressure to build quickly at startup which is when most wear occurs. Heavier weight oils will move slower to achieve this.

the oil galleys inside the motor are made smaller to accomodate the thinner recommended oils.

Heavier oils retain more heat than thinner oils.

Heavier oils rob horsepower. (that is why most HYPO motors run 0w30/40)

blah blah blah.... someone else can give a few reasons..

MaxB (who is sleepy due to the heat outside)

Hammy,

It is my understanding that the thicker the oil, the more internal friction (read heat and drag) it causes, thereby robbing power from the rear wheel. To make up for this lost power, you add fuel. The answer to your question is Yes, 10W-40 would be worse than 10W-30, although the difference would not be great. Automobiles being pushed for ever better fuel economy are going to 0W-20 oils now (Ford, Honda, and probably others) for that reason. Every little bit helps, as they say.

MaxB wrote:

Hammy wrote:

I wonder, for those of us who spend a lot of our riding in the upper band of the tachometer, would it be better for our scooters to have something heavier, like a 20w50 oil?

...
...

Heavier oils rob horsepower. (that is why most HYPO motors run 0w30/40)

blah blah blah.... someone else can give a few reasons..

MaxB (who is sleepy due to the heat outside)

On the plus side, heavier oils tend to 'stay put' better in hot conditions, so if Hammy wanted to do one of his high speed, long distance runs out in the desert, then maybe 20w50 would be appropriate.

GaryL wrote:

Hammy,

It is my understanding that the thicker the oil, the more internal friction (read heat and drag) it causes, thereby robbing power from the rear wheel. To make up for this lost power, you add fuel. The answer to your question is Yes, 10W-40 would be worse than 10W-30, although the difference would not be great. Automobiles being pushed for ever better fuel economy are going to 0W-20 oils now (Ford, Honda, and probably others) for that reason. Every little bit helps, as they say.

I worry that the manufacturers are sacrificing some engine longevity for the sake of getting an extra 0.4 mpg or something. If something provides "sufficient lubrication", does that mean there are better options from a lubrication point of view? But then how long would one have to drive to really know if it made a difference? Frustrating...

I've been running Rotella for the last 9,000 miles (two changes), with zero issues. It comes out relatively clean looking when changed, and I've seen no foaming when checking the oil level.

Boy I definitely learn a whole lot here! Never knew all this stuff about oil... didn't even realize it could affect your mileage. I'm getting about 40mpg on high speed runs right now with stock everything, 26g sliders and Rotella T6. I wonder what my mileage would be with 28g sliders (28g being stock weight) and 10W30 Mobil One synthetic - guess I'll find out in about 4000 miles!

x

bigbird wrote:

Slick-Tenn wrote:

I would NEVER put Rotella in my Swing? It was DESIGNED and BUILT ("engineered") for DIESEL applications. i.e., LOW RPM applications.

And GM Duramax, VW 4 cylinder diesels, and Ford Navistars are low rpm engines? Think again.

I'll buy you a steak dinner if even one of those units you mentioned redlines higher than 6k! My guess is they're 5k+.

bigbird wrote:

Slick-Tenn wrote:

But, because it has no friction modifiers and has been known to foam at high RPMs, I simply cross it off my list.

Shell Rotella, in regular, T5, and T6 flavours, has been used for a long time in motorcycles and scooters. Results of used oil analyses by Blackstone Labs have been posted here at bobistheoilguy.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=49&page=1

The results of these tests have always shown that Rotella has been an excellent lubricant for bike and scooter engines.

Slick-Tenn may have crossed Rotella and any other heavy duty engine oil off his list due to OPINION.
FACTS say it is an excellent lubricant for your scooter. You decide.

Use your Rotella till the cows come home. Yes, it's a quality lubricant. But, it simply ISN'T as good as the Amsoil Euro because it DOESN'T have friction modifiers. Side by side, the Amsoil runs cooler, flows more freely, causes the engine to spin more freely, wear less, get better MPG and is head and shoulders above EVERYTHING else on the market (ASTM testing). I DID decide. Happy trails!

Um... where do you buy your Amsoil Euro?

Slick-Tenn wrote:

Use your Rotella till the cows come home. Yes, it's a quality lubricant. But, it simply ISN'T as good as the Amsoil Euro because it DOESN'T have friction modifiers. Side by side, the Amsoil runs cooler, flows more freely, causes the engine to spin more freely, wear less, get better MPG and is head and shoulders above EVERYTHING else on the market (ASTM testing). I DID decide. Happy trails!

Moo!

I'd never seen Amsoil before... I looked on their website and they appear to have some oils that last 25k miles!!!

Hammy wrote:

I'd never seen Amsoil before... I looked on their website and they appear to have some oils that last 25k miles!!!

Amsoil has been marketing synthetic oil for quite a while. It's good oil, but not worth the rather ridiculous premium pricing...

Has anyone ever tried their 25k oil? This is what I was reading: http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/atm.aspx

If that's true, I wouldn't need to change my oil till 15k miles!

Hammy wrote:

Um... where do you buy your Amsoil Euro?

I believe European one Slick-Tenn mentions ( http://www.amsoil.com/storefront/afl.aspx )

Sweendog wrote:

It's good oil, but not worth the rather ridiculous premium pricing...

Since I don't drive anywhere near 15k mi/yr, my plan is to save some money and do my car and Swing oil changes at the same time - take the used Amsoil from the Swing and use it as part of the oil in my old Infiniti with 193k miles on it

Hammy wrote:

Um... where do you buy your Amsoil Euro?

I am an Amsoil dealer, but ANYONE can buy ANY of their products at their website. If you aren't interested in becoming a dealer ($30 per year), you can sign up to be a "preferred customer" for half a year for about $15 (or less?)(or simply purchase them retail). This lets you purchase Amsoil products at dealer prices. Amsoil will add state sales tax and shipping and UPS will put it on your doorstep in about 5 business days. Their most popular oil is the ASL 5W30, and the Euro Formula is only 10 cents more and also meets the stricter European standards AND the new (higher) standards from VW/BMW/Audi. For those of you who think it's "too expensive", consider two things: 1) Take the very best care of your mount that you can in order to protect yourself and your mount during its service to you and 2) someday, you're going to pass your Swing on to another rider. Wouldn't you rather look him in the eye and tell him "It had the very best care I could give it"? If you sign up as a preferred customer, somewhere on the app they'll ask you for some sort of "reference" (ZO) number. Please use 1343941. Thanks!

x

The whole MLM factor of Amsoil is one of the things that leads me away from their products. Not because they're not good --I think they're fine, but because MLMs are just freaking annoying.

Sweendog, I agree 100%.

x

Multi-Level Marketing.

x

Sorry, yes "MLM" = Multilevel marketing.

Amway
Tupperware
Amsoil

etc. Again, not disparaging the product at all, I just do not prefer that form of sales and marketing.

Just a little history, :arrow:

"Non-synthetic vs. synthetic motor oil
Written by Nick Shultz | | letters@toledofreepress.com
The first synthetic oils were actually produced over a century ago. In the late 1800′s Germany was a pioneer in the development of synthetic oil. Germany’s early research led to the development of a process which allowed production of synthetic oil from coal. Out of necessity synthetics were further developed during World War 2 for use in Jet aircraft and tanks. Both Germany and the United States used synthetic lubricants during the war.

Synthetic oils were found to be superior to their crude oil counterparts. Synthetic oils offer better low temperature and high temperature protection to engines.

Although synthetic oils have been available for a long time it hasn’t been until recently that their use has become widespread. The complex manufacturing process and ultimately the cost of synthetics kept them out of the general market for many years. However, with improved manufacturing techniques and higher crude oil prices synthetics are now much more cost effective.

Synthetic oils differ from crude oils at the molecular level. Refined crude oil produces oil that has varying molecule sizes and shapes, unlike synthetic oil molecules which are much more uniform in both size and shape. Because synthetic oil molecules are very nearly all equal in size they have less friction and, therefore, create less heat as the synthetic molecules rub against one another. You could say synthetic oils are more slippery than crude oils.

Where as regular motor oils are refined from crude oil stock, synthetic motor oils are refined from Polyalphaolefins (PAO) which are hydrogenated synthetic hydrocarbon fluids or they are refined from Esters. Esters are chemical compounds made by combining oxoacids (acids that contain oxygen) with a hydroxyl compound (hydrogen based such as alcohol). As I stated earlier the manufacture of synthetic oil is more complex than the manufacture of conventional oil. Therefore synthetic oils cost more. PAO based synthetic oils are less expensive than Ester based oils to produce.

The American Petroleum Institute (API) has defined five groups of oils. Groups one through three are conventional motor oils while group four is PAO synthetic and group five is ester oil as well as some other more complex synthetics.

The primary difference between ester and PAO based synthetics is the end result after production. Ester based synthetics end up having polarity similar to a magnet (kinda-sorta). That means that they are naturally attracted to the engine block and other mechanical parts. This causes ester based synthetics to have more lubricity and they provide more protection during engine start up. Another advantage of ester based synthetics is they do not produce ash when they burn as do crude based and PAO based oils. Though fairly expensive they offer great engine protection.

Because of their high production costs associated with ester synthetics, they are not readily available to the public in their pure form. However the very best synthetic oils offer a blend of ester and PAO. The ester content will range from 5% to 25% of the overall volume.

Synthetic oils, whether PAO or ester based, offer better low temperature flow characteristics than do petroleum based oils. Therefore they are very well suited to cold engine operation. Petroleum based oils contain wax. It is the wax within conventional petroleum based oils that inhibits its ability to flow during low temperatures.

Synthetic oils afford us the advantage of longer intervals between oil changes. The longer intervals help to offset the higher initial purchase price.

Scientific evidence indicates that synthetic motor oils are far superior to petroleum based oils. Except for the cost synthetic outperform conventional oils in every way. Even if you are the type of driver who only drives occasionally you can benefit from the use of synthetic motor oil. The greatest amount of engine wear occurs during initial engine start up. Quality synthetic oils offer a better barrier between internal engine parts during this critical period of engine operation.

Nick Shultz is an instructor of Automotive Technologies at Owens Community College. He is an arbitrator for the Better Business Bureau who specializes in cases involving the Ohio and Michigan Lemon laws. He is a certified master automotive technician by ASE, General Motors Corp. and Ford Motor Co. E-mail your auto questions to news@toledofreepress.com."

Sween Dog... my house is full of Tupperware... I have used several Amway products in the past.(Don't know a local dealer for my area). Both are excellent products. I am not familiar with the Amsoil product line. But will look around for it now.

MLM is a unique way of marketing. Very nice to order a product and have it delivered to my home. I know some people prefer to get in a car or on a scooter, drive across town, park half way to China from the store, walk through the place looking, stand in line at the checkout, the lady (or guy) in front of you in the line has three items that need a "Price Check". Pay out and head back in the parking lot, can't find your car or your keys. Finally get home, sit down, and the wife calls "Honey will you go to the store for me?"

At my age, I appreciate a lot of services that I use to want to do myself.

Man I really love a good oil discussion thread. So informative, educational, and enlightening - NOT!

Next let's talk about insurance and tires some more.

Hey Gary,

Give this oil a try. Motul 7100 Synthetic Ester Motor Oil. Did a little reading and this sounds like some great oil.

http://www.motostrano.com/7100.html

This ones for you Dale:




:lol!: :lol!: :lol!: :lol!: :lol!: :lol!: :lol!: :lol!:

Thanks I can finally say I've enjoyed an oil thread.

jdeereanton wrote:

Man I really love a good oil discussion thread. So informative, educational, and enlightening - NOT!

Next let's talk about insurance and tires some more.

NAW!!!! how many carry baby wipes on the road? I found some that were individually wrapped.
Ya Just never Know. HEHEHEHEHEHE

MaxB (packin right now for a road trip leaving 5:50 am tomorrow) YIPPEE!!!!!!