Engine braking

In several past posts, there have been some questions as to the ability of the SWing to utilize engine braking during steep downhill sections of road. I just completed a ride through eastern Arizona (Route 191 between Safford and Eagar). Sections of this road are very steep and very twisty with numerous switchbacks. Here are some observations from that ride.

On a marked 8% downhill grade, if you close the throttle completely, the SWing will start slowing down due to compression braking. You actually have to keep the throttle slightly open to maintain speed.

Uphill switchbacks were handled with ease. Plenty of power.

Downhill switchbacks also were no problem. At no time did the clutches release and let the bike roll freely. I was able to maintain 15mph or more, and they held just fine. One time I intentially slowed down enough to release the clutches. As soon as the bike started rolling freely, I gave it a bit of throttle and the clutches re-engaged smoothly and kept the speed in check until it was time to accelerate on to the next curve. Some short sections of these downhill switchbacks were certainly steeper than 8%, yet the SWing showed no tendency to speed up as long as the throttle was closed.

I have done this same ride on a GoldWing, and I remember constantly shifting between first and second gear, and occasionally, third, as I traversed this section. With the SWing, all I had to do was brake and throttle as required... smooth as silk. A very pleasurable experience.

Fine----but trail braking on SilverWing difficult if not really impossible with linked brakes. Other words keeping the drive line loaded in the real slow downhill stuff-----to me clutch cutting in and out not best feature---you ought to try it in snow or mud.

Ridden as putt putt scooter Silverwing fine and I enjoy but really whistling can be handful.

Reg bike , if you are skilled, gives rider many more control options.


John Grinsel

Gary I'm with you. I find the Silver Wing a dream on the steep hills. I live on the top of one so daily I utilise the 'Wings' engine braking, like you say, a small amount of throttle keeps the machine in line.

John we all now know you are anti Silver Wing, if you find that much fault in it go back to a "reg bike". I find your negativity quite boring now.

Quote John "--you ought to try it in snow or mud"

I don't know about the rest of you, but I don't intend to ride my Silverwing in mud or snow. If I did want to ride like that, I would get an off road bike.

Quote Waspie "John we all now know you are anti Silver Wing, if you find that much fault in it go back to a "reg bike". I find your negativity quite boring now"

Amen

I like the engine braking too on the SWing. I have went down some steeper mountains here in calif and it does a great job. When I ride to work there is a part that is downhill and i have to give throttle going down or I lose speed. I do find it hard to understand why John even rides scooters. I have had motorcycles and i don't see that much of a difference. I do wish the tires were a bit larger and a bit better suspension at times. But overall i'm still very happy.

I think it has something to do with his legs. Since he has little choice, I think he's bitter about it.

I think john missed the whole point of the post. Some of our less experienced riders have questioned what happens with the 'automatic' transmission on steep downhills? What happens if the clutches disengage?
While I was enjoying a day off doing what I love to do, I tested some of those limits to see what would indeed happen. I am pleased to say that there are no nasty surprises. If the clutches disengage, once you are through the turn, just give it a bit of throttle (I let it get to 20MPH) and they will re-engage without any fuss. I hope that this will give some of our participants the courage to try out that mountain road that they always wanted to try, but were a little hesitant.

John's 'glass half empty' approach to this is to CONTINUE to complain about linked brakes. John, you are NOT the only rider here to have ridden many years and many miles. I cannot claim 1 million miles, but I can claim 45 years of all sorts of riding, dirt, street, Ice, mud and snow. I have ridden bikes with linked brakes for the last 10 years or so, and I find them perfectly acceptable except for flat out canyon carving or track days. Even then, if you really understand the limits of your equipment, they will do well. Trail braking is an advanced technique that most new riders have never heard of, and I doubt seriously that they are anywhere close to approaching the limits of the SWing as they ride. Lets try to help them gain confidence and try new challenges as they gain experience and rack up some miles, not discourage anyone by talking about traits that don't matter unless you are approaching those limits.

Somebody says I am anti SilverWing. BS. Just the facts

I have purchased over 75 new bikes & scooters---SilverWing is what I have now and will get rid of between 25 and 50,000 miles and go on to the next. SilverWing is fine for what it is---Nice Scooter, but scooter and one had better respect that.


As to people who don't ride in snow/mud. You ride a lot and stuff just happens. Same for no rain types---usually they are not prepared and hide under bridges.

As to linked brakes, they seem to work fine(I have had Reflex/SilverWing with linked brakes for sure) I suppose my Suzuki Burgman 400 had, too---And my TMAX?. But like rear brake only control.

I lived in Tokyo over 10 years---rear brake alone is great balancing aid, splitting lanes, etc. Foot pedal of Helix (Fusion) was great. Could save imbarassement in parking lot manuevers-----How many have dumped by handful of left brake in tight spots? or just front brake?

Back to clutch letting go in steep downhill---can/could be problem for some people, even worse in bad traction situation. MSF doesn't cover stuff like this.
.

Too many people do not like to see someone critical of their purchase. Sorry. Many were defensive of their Concours (old type) as it was on its way out.

There is not much new development in the scooter world right now, SilverWing is older design---its replacement should have some improvements. but when...I see several years down the line.....like 4 way flashers/out side temp gauge/lower bars/windshield closer to nose (no or less buffeting)/maybe foot rear brake control/no valve adj/no belt replacement, etc.


Going to Scooter Rally in MO next week. Lots of trailer bikers?

John Grinsel


At 71, DAV, hips shot, knees on way out, stroke am probably stuck with step thru for the next 10-30 years. But even nothing wrong, would still have scooter as I always liked to keep one around---I like scooters, when living in Europe---took scooter, Vespa 150 on vacation when new BMW RT80, Honda XBR500, MZ in garage. Just easier and sometimes more fun.

Focus, John, FOCUS!

My addition to the debate:

I'm very wary of the situation where manufacturers feel the need to change things apparently for the sake of change.
I owned Piaggio X9s for six years - a 250sl with the Honda engine for two and a Piaggio-engined 500 for four.
The 250 was adequately powered and included such things as 4-way flashers, outside-temperature gauge, ice warning and adjustable screen - it was a well-appointed, comfortable machine.
It did not have complex immobilizers and such-like.
The 500 had the good features but fell victim to over-engineered electrics and could be a pain in the arse for that reason.
The aerial on the immobiliser failed on mine while I was on holiday in France and Belgium, both countries close for August so my dealer actually drove out from England with a new part and fitted it - £10 part, 15 minutes to fit!
Piaggio electrics are vastly over-complicated and very flimsy.
The X9 is no longer produced.

My diesel VW Caddy is suffering some fault which is indicated by a warning light on the dash. The garage plugged in the diagnostic computer which said three of the heater-plugs were knackered. Now, I know that heater-plugs do not affect the running and it is not running right!
Plugs changed, indicated fault reappears the first time I drive at motorway speed. The car is less than five years old and the technology is state-of-the-art but far too complicated.
By contrast, my aunt's Morris 1000 saloon is forty years old, still running and based on 60+ years old mechanicals. No diagnostic computer needed to find any faults because the technology is so simple - we changed clutches in the gutter and even rebored one with the engine-block still in the car. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morris_Minor

The Morris Oxford, same vintage, is still being made in India!

The engine I had in my narrow-boat (1994) was the old B-Series engine. first designed in 1952 but still produced in Turkey. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMC_B-Series_engine

Yes, modern cars accelerate quicker, go faster and are probably more economical in terms of fuel-consumption but in many ways, old cars are 'better'.

My point is that even though the Silverwing is older technology and suffers from a lack of some modern conveniences, it has reliability almost unsurpassed in the maxiscooter world.
Add hazard-flashers (yes, please), add an air-temperature gauge, even have a foot-brake option (I won't make a long list) but please don't spoil a good scooter for the sake of keeping up with the Joneses.

Subject: Re: Engine braking Sat Sep 11, 2010 6:43 pm

Fine----but trail braking on SilverWing difficult if not really impossible with linked brakes. Other words keeping the drive line loaded in the real slow downhill stuff-----to me clutch cutting in and out not best feature---you ought to try it in snow or mud.

Ridden as putt putt scooter Silverwing fine and I enjoy but really whistling can be handful.

Reg bike , if you are skilled, gives rider many more control options.


John Grinsel
-----------------------
I usually just lurk, but I truly don't understand what John is trying to do or convey here. I know I take my "very loved" Silverwing "off-road" or in "mud and snow" every day. I've seen the large "decked out" Harleys and Gold Wings doing the same thing.

Perhaps, consider a bike made a bit more for the purpose. To me it's kind of like trying to cut a tree down with a butcher knife. Yes, the knife is designed to cut, you might actually succeed, but it wasn't designed for the purpose you're using it. (it certainly won't be convenient either)

I absolutely won't defend anyone saying it's convenient using a Silverwing on a trail either. Having ridden it thousands of miles now, I definitely know it's a poor choice for trails. I too wouldn't want it to disengage in the manner it does and is so designed.

Around here, trail bikes are quite inexpensive - if we're discussing a bike for trails, even modest trails, hey, pick one of those "puppy's" up.

Don . . .
Nashville, TN

I know SilverWing is not trail bike-----but I like to use one bike for all, SilverWing is what I have now.

Ride to Alaska----bound to be little dirt/mud and even snow--- onreg bike/scooter---I have seen GoldWing riders in low quarter shoes having a good time doing it there.

I took short cut in Japan on map the lied---100 km of pure rough mountain logging trails, on Helix---went slow and came thru...on trip that was supposed to be all paved highway. stuff happens.

My point, I guess if you ride a lot, you run into unplanned situations.


For MikeO-----I sure wouldn't want any new model scooter to have more electronic crap---Honda at least still has simple Key---simple and idiot proof is what I see. Ever look at new Vespa/Ducati keys. Cannot get them made at a key shop for $3----just got rid of my BMW coupe, bought new for being too complicated----no spare/dipstick/jack/lug wrench/$400 key, etc etc. Just phone number to tell them to come get it. Because of clear air requirements, fuel injection/smog stuff will still be around. Further improvement for new scooter should be easy removal of rear wheel---one sided

swing arm...like Heinkel/Vespa and many others and of course spare wheel/

John Grinsel

Any body have an extra set of wheels for John?
Craig

I have a question: When the bike is still cold, as in the first few stops for lights or corner turns, stop signs, etc; I find that the engine braking is a bit "rough". By that I mean that you get a sort of lurching/bucking from the transmission as it winds down through the gears to a stop. I was wondering if anyone has ever had their bike do this, and if so, was it related to engine braking because the engine wasn't warm enough yet or was it something in the tranny? I've looked up and down for posts on this issue but to no avail, so I thought I'd ask in the closest topic thread. I should also add that engine braking is smooth and even once the bike has been fully up to normal operating temperature.

"LVScooterBill",
Have never heard of that complication before during the coast-down, engine braking phase. Sounds more like a cold, rough running engine situation to me especially if it improves after warmup. Perhaps a bit of engine gas treatment could improve that problem.

I have experience what LVSBill is talking about.

I usually warm the engine up before riding however on the occasion I don't, I experience the lurching when going down hill. My home is on top of a rather steep hill which really is steep!!! The colder engine needs more throttle and braking to negotiate the hill on the days I elect to ride off from cold. As the transmission is automatic, ie. belt I have always treated it as a function of the engine and not the belt, (still do.)

When doing the same journey with a warm engine I benefit from the engine braking for the decent down the hill. So there is something into letting the engine reach optimum temperature before riding off if you know you are going to encounter descending slopes or hills.

A remote possibility is that the sleeve that the drive plate in the CVT slides back and forth on during acceleration/deacceleration, being cold, may be a bit sticky till it warms up. Since that part of the CVT is driven by the crankshaft perhaps a warm up of the engine also warms that part of the transmission.

The J.Costa sleeve caused similar issues if not kept clean and lightly lubed, but I've had no similar problems with other CVT scooters I've owned.

ulflyer wrote:

but I've had no similar problems with other CVT scooters I've owned.

Agree but also add, no other scooter has had the degree of engine braking that the Silver Wing provides!!

Waspie, thats the truth and I was really pleasantly surprised when I first got the SW. All my previous ones had a very early release of the clutch when coming to a stop or slow down, thus going into freewheeling. I like the braking aspect of the SW.

So much so, its 10am here in NC, temps are rising, sun shining, I'm gonna go ride a bit.

To keep the engine/clutch engaged at any speed at any time, such as cornering slower than 20kph, just use the throttle to keep the revs above 2500 and use the linked brake to control the speed of the bike.
Practice in a parking lot. It works.
With proper technique, the SW does it all.
Steve

I do not have that much riding experence, much less on different bikes, but when I got my SilverWing I was pleasently surprised by the engine braking. I did have to learn on my own that with just a little engine rpm, it stayed locked. I really like this feature. Also, from the start I was not real happy with the handling of my bike, but I was new at it. I was going to change the front springs like so many of you have but then I decided to adjust the rear shock tension. I don't ride 2-up and only weigh 170 lbs. so I thought it was okay. I had it set at #1 and I changed it to #3. I can not believe the difference in handling. It is like a totally different machine. I was even going to trike it but now I think I will wait till I get some more miles under my belt. This is truly a wonderful machine. It is not surprising that Honda has built the Swing for so many years without any major design changes. Just my two cents worth.

Wis-Rider: don't be in a hurry to trike it and make sure you find one to ride before you do. I've got the beginning of knee and other joint issues and traded my '09 B400 on a Can Am RT. It is a wonderful 3 wheeler and is much easier on the joints, but found I was still not happy without a 2 wheeler, thus my recent purchase of the 05 SW. Open roads lend themself to the Can Am; curves and twists, or even many of our secondary roads, seem more suited to the 2 wheeler. Of course if you trike it you can always convert it back.

Thanks for the reply, ulfyer. I am going to see how the summer goes. I see you have a trike with a wing to go with your Swing! HaHa. Love airplanes and go to AirVenture almost every year.

Wis: LOL, hadn't thot of the plane like that. Unfortunately I sold it a couple years ago but would trade the Can Am for it back in a heartbeat.

You have been riding since 1948??? I was two years old then! I just got my motorcycle license in 2010. Never rode before that. Got my ticket when I was 64. Never to late to start a new adventure!

Thanks for the responses on the "coast down" surging question to all. As for the S-Wing being the only one to do it I agree, but I don't ever recall riding that cold with the others. I will try the gas/ethanol treatment fluid, as well as longer warm up time, I will try both.

As far as the engine braking level of the Silver Wing I'll say this: I'm used to it now, although I liked the Burgman 400's slightly lesser level of it but thoroughly loathed the Burgman 650's excessive (in my opinion) level of engine braking. In time I got used to the B650, but felt like I was always fighting to finesse just the right amount of throttle, particularly when entering this sharp right turn near my house at the time. It'd end up bucking like a horse. Not a nice feeling when leaning hard. Like I said, I got used to it, but never liked it. Prior to that my Helix had very little EB. To me the B400 and the S-Wing have hit the sweet spot on EB--not too little, not too much.