Scoot died today . Fuel injection.

I have a power CommanderIII on the S'wing since last winter.
For the last couple of weeks , at low idle it would serge then be ok (rpm Drop).
then this week when idling it sounded like it was running on one clyinder at idle once in a while.
I would rev it and it shouddered like in was not getting fuel or was loaded too rich.

One time when I restarted it , there was a puff of white smoke. (Too rich?)

Over 3k rpm it runs great.

Tonight I was comming home and it got worse and finally died when I was at 3k rpm or lower. And The red light to the left of the yellow V belt light came on and started blinkin. I turned the key off then on and it restarted. Got it home.

Tomorrow Diagnostics:
Check plugs

three things come to mind
1. the Power commander is bad in the lower rpm range.
2. an Injector is stuck/hanging.
3. Fuel Regulator is bad.

I will keep everyone informed as things unfold.

MaxB (got to read the service manual tonight)

Hi Max,

Sorry to hear about this. Keep use all updated to what's going on with the scoot. I hope it's something simple.

Are you going to remove the Power commander and give it a try?

Max,

Do you think you may need to re-load your map or just load up a different map (the stock map) just to see if that does it? I don't think anyone has had this problem yet on this site either. Please keep us informed when you find this out. Good luck.

DennisB: yes first try will be removal of Power Commander and ride.

2, If OK , then reload program, check wiring , retry PC.
3. If not OK w/o PC then check other things mentioned.

I really think it is the PCIII but need to verify tomorrow.

Will keep all informed

MaxB (off to bed lots to do tomorrow hahahahha)

Today I took the PCIII off, There was no physical damage wires looked good.
Reassembled the scoot and rode about 75 miles. Let it idle for 30 minutes.

No discernable problems.
I haven't worked on the PCIII today will look at it tomorrow, Unless it's pretty and feel a need to ride.
Will let ya'll know as it progresses.
MaxB (glad it is not the S'wing)

Hello all, The same happened to me this morning on my way to work. The scoot starting hesitating and the red light came on and started flashing, felt as if the scoot was getting ready to shut off. At red lights I had to keep the throttle open a bit to keep it from shutting off. Also noticed that when I opened the throttle to over take a car the red light on the display would flash on and off. Scoot finally shut off and had to pull over and re-start, but could tell something was not right. Scoot has new plugs, air filter is good. Funny thing is I had this problem back in April and it lasted about 2 weeks and it just went away. Scoot rode fine all summer till this morning. Would really welcome help with this matter as I was hoping to keep riding until the end of the year.

RVer , do you have the PCIII on your scoot?

I got online with Power commander, they have an online help with problems.
When using it a tech does real time diagnostics on the unit.
He updated my firmware in the PCIII .
he could not find anything else wrong with it.

I have no reinstalled it on the scoot.
He could do it on the scoot while running , but I don't have a laptop to do this.

MaxB(who may get a notebook with WIFI soon for this and trips )

I'd toss that commander

tankyuong wrote:

I'd toss that commander

Why? What makes you think it's a faulty Commander?
Most electrical gremlins are caused by poor grounding or lack of continuity. I'd check all electrical connections for continuity and then corrosion.

No, the scoot is stock, except for a 12v cigarette lighter I installed back in March 2010 as per instructions from this Forum. Come to think of it, I never had a problem with the scoot prior to installing the 12v cigarette lighter plug. I install the 12v plug in early March, In late March I took a 4 day trip down to Kentucky and TN. with no problem, scoot perform flawless. But about a week or so after my return home in early April I began to have the problem I described earlier, lasted for awhile then it went away until this morning. Been nagging at me all day today at work as to the cause. There were a few instences (I know I misspelled the word, drawing a mental block) this morning when I went to give it gas it hesitated quite a bit, almost to the point of shutting off.
PLEASE HELP!!!

Maybe the wire you ran to the cigarette lighter has been rubbing on something and is shorting out from time to time (low voltage would make the FI system unhappy). Try disconnecting the positive wire from the battery or wherever you have it connected and see if that changes anything.

Electrical gremlins also come from pinched wires, which may be another way of saying continuity, but caused by a different reason. I don't know how you routed your wiring for the 12v socket, or how much tupperware you took off, but pinched wire(s) can cause this sort of erratic behavior.

RVer, when I took the PCIII off , the scoot returned to normal , except for drop in MPG's.

Try taking it off and see if the problem goes away. Mine did.

Like mentioned , electronics can be weird, (industrial electrician for 30 yrs)
sometimes as they heat up they break down, then when cool again they work until heated up again. A lot of electronics are ratede for millions of cycles , but they do fail.

At least they are better than the old contact points.

MaxB (cig lighter is NOT involved here I think)

Hello all, on my way home from work yesterday the scoot ran fine, same thing this morning on my ride to work no problems. However I will disconnect the positive wire before my trip home today. I do have the fuse removed from the 12v socket when not in use.

THANKS EVERYONE!!!

Hi everyone,

I'm reading this thread because what happened toRVer happened to me last week. I was riding two up through Belfast city centre, warm day and very slow traffic. At a majot junction the engine just stopped and the PGM FI light flashed. Pushed to side of road and it restarted after a few minutes but quickly began to feel like only one cylinder was firing then it quit again and that light flashed again. It wouldn't restart and there was an excess fuel smell.

I called my rescue service, got the SWing taken home and after I got her off the transporter she started and ran fine. I haven't had need or opportunity to ride her again since and am going to do a little trouble shooting today on a day off. Any input would be appreciated.

My SWing is a 2010 model, totally stock apart from GIVI windscreen and has been utterly reliable.

cheers

Update to this. I started her up and she went fine, this is a week after the incident and she hasn't been used since. Idled fine, revved fine. Let her to idle and after a few minutes she began to splutter like on one cylinder. Switched off and restarted, same pattern and smoke produced from the exhaust. However, the F1 warning light did not flash.

Removed the spark plugs. Left cylinder plug was quite sooty. Right plug was also quite sooty but also wet. Cleaned both and replaced. Same thing happened - started fine and idled ok for a few minutes ten sputtering. Swapped the plugs around and tried to restart. No joy. This time the F1 light flashed one long flash and three short ones, repeadedly. Also, there was no distinctive power-up whine of the fuel pump, no zzzzzzzz as mentioned by an earlier poster. So I guess it's a visit to Mr Honda.

Page 5-10, 5-11 shows "Failure Codes". One long flash = 10, three short flashes = 3, for a Failure Code of 13.

Code 13 says; Loose or poor contact on #2 injector; Open or short connection on #2 injector; bad #2 injector.

Tim

Thanks Tim, any idea if it's DIY fixable?

cheers

About the only thing I can think of at the moment (haven't had my coffee yet) is to check the wire harness connection on #2. Maybe it's loose or has a correded connection. If so you can clean it up with some sand paper, a small wire brush, and/or a good healthy spritz of Electrical Contact Cleaner. Maybe too meter check the connector wires back to the ECU wite harness plug(s) to see if there is continuity.

You really need a FSM to see the full EFI tests and fault codes as well as to follow the wiring diagram connections and color codes.

Thanks again Tim. Just tried her again to check something after speaking to Honda. The fuel pump whinning sound was heard, no flashing FI light and she started though roughly, like only one cylinder firing, then it settled to a proper idle then it went rough again.

I don't have a FSM and electrical wiring diagrams confuse the hell out of me anyway. Happy to check connections etc so where do I find the wiring for the injector? Reasonably competent DIY mechanic.

Y/Bu wire is for the Right (#2) injector, it connects to terminal 9 of the black wire harness plug on the ECM. Hope this helps for now. Gotta go I'll check in on you later today.

Tim

Oops: Wrong Color code above.

Injector #2 wire colors are P/Y & B/W. Injector #1 is P/Bu & B/W.  P/Y connects to terminal #2 of the Black wire harness plug of the ECM. P/Bu connects to terminal #13.

With Ignition OFF disconnect the Injector Connector. Measure resistance of the injector. It should read 11.1-12.3 ohms. Check for continuity between B/W injector terminal and ground. There should be No Continuity.

Turn Ingition ON (Don't Start), measure voltage between the injector connector plug and ground. You should read Battery voltage.

If there is Continuity between the injector and ground then the injector is bad. If the voltage test is out of range then there is an Open or Short circuit in the B/W wire.

Best bet is to clean those injector terminals and the injector connector with Comtact Cleaner.  Hope this helps. Please let us know how you get on with problem.

Thank you Tim, I'll try to check that tonight. Can you tell me where the ECM is located? I don't have a service manual.

cheers

Martyn

The ECM is located under the left side body panel (item #14 in the illustration).
http://www.partzilla.com/parts/search/Honda/Scooter/2003/FSC600D+AC/BODY+COVER/parts.html

You might want to visit/bookmark that Partzilla website so that you can reference the various parts of the Silverwing. Yeah, sure, it's not a FSM, and it's for a FSC model, not an FJS, but at least you'll be able to famaliarize yourself with the pieces of the puzzle until you can locate a FSM.

Meanwhile if you are unsure about the location of the fuel injectors; they are under the underseat cover (tool tray). Sometimes it's much easier to access that area if you disconnect the seat support and hinge the seat forward.

Tim

Thanks again Tim. Just home early from work, having a coffee (only had a quick half cup in the US Consulate today!!) and will at least locate all the parts if not attempt testing. I've had that panel off before, in fact had both them off. Had a notion the injectors would be located under my a**!

Will keep the forum posted. Even if I can't fix it I prefer knowing what is causing the problem than being ignorant.

cheers

Hi Tim,

Did everything you mentioned. Though I'm never confdent with electrics all the tests you specified seemed to check out fine. Injector resistance was 12.3, no continuity between injector B/W terminal and earth, full battery voltage between the plug and earth. So I fiddled in that cramped space and best I could reach I cleaned the terminals with some sand paper, blew out the socket with compressed air then a squirt of contact cleaner. Hell I even did No1 injector while I was there.

Switched on, heard the whine of the fuel pump, FI light came on then went off as normal. Good sign says I. Wheeled her out of the garage and started her up. Very slightly rougher than normal for a few seconds and it was smokier than normal for a bit longer than a normal cold start but it settled. Rode her up and down the street, seemed fine. Took her out on the main road and got her to 60mph, all smooth as ever, not a hiccup.

So, hopefully, alls well and I learnt something new and have a sense of satisfaction too, like I used to get sorting out my old Beemers years ago. Thank you for all your help. Hopefully I can still go on my Widows Sons chapter run out in two weeks without difficulty. But sure, I have breakdown insurance! I'll do a few more local test rides before setting sail for a 200 miler though.

Seriously, thank you and I'm glad I am on this forum. So now my turn to hopefully help someone in return. I'll keep you posted about anything that crops up from the test rides.

Very best to ya,

Martyn

Thank you for your report. Too often we never get responses to help given.

Thank you Martyn for letting us know your progress. And I agree with Hi Yo it's nice to hear if the help given helped get it fixed.

OOOPS, it happened again!!! All the above was true and last night I was accompanying my daughter (a novice rider) on an experience ride on local quiet roads. Going quite slowly approaching a junction and the sputtering happened then she died. FI light flashed 1 long 3 short again. Switch off then on again, no FI light flashes but no start either. Had to push her the last 500 yards home!! DRAT.

Very helpful local mechanic suggests it may be a fuel issue, given the symptoms and conditions of occurrence. What ya think? he says he has treated a number of bikes and scooters lately suffering water in their fuel and giving very similar symptoms.

Just before each occurrence my tank was on the flashing last indicator bar, bought branded BP fuel from a long established local station. Anyone help me with how to find/remove the fuel filter and how to remove the fuel tank for draining? Is tank removal even a DIY operation? Don't want to go to expensive Mr Honda if it turns out to have been this and I could have sorted it.

Thanks
M

I would go to an auto parts store and get a fuel additive that is recommended for removing water. Follow the instructions, fill with new fuel, and ride a couple of tanks. Using additive each time. Sounds like a good excuse for a long day trip. Hey, I think I may follow my own ideas.

I would NOT put any additives in the fuel tank.I used RedEx for years in my last Silver wing, before reading in the Manual do not use any fuel additives as it may harm the coating on the fuel injectors. My last bike had the warning FI light come on and iam sure using the additive was the cause. I also then had light bulbsblowing and other problems. In the end I got a new Silver wing.

Dramhunter wrote:

<> Anyone help me with how to find/remove the fuel filter and how to remove the fuel tank for draining? Is tank removal even a DIY operation? Don't want to go to expensive Mr Honda if it turns out to have been this and I could have sorted it.
M

The fuel filter is part of the fuel pump which is inside the fuel tank. Removing the fuel tank is too involved to discuss here and should really not be attempted without a FSM.

However you can insert a siphon hose into the tank and drain it in that manner. As another member here mentioned, if you insert a stiff wire into the hose you can kind of guide the hose to the bottom of the tank without it curling back up above the fuel.

But as "Hi Yo" said you might want to try adding a fuel additive designed to remove water from fuel first before attempting to empty the tank. It's not as if you'll be adding that additive with each tankful so you wont risk damaging any of the FI components.

Tim

I have changed the tank on a Silverwing and I agree with Tim it's too involved to write out here. It's not that hard but you definitely should have a factory service manual to do it properly.
One question I have about fuel additives, before gas had ethanol in it we used to use what was called dry gas which was basically ethanol. The reason was that ethanol blends with gas carrying the water out with the gas and burning it up. Back to my question, wouldn't regular gas with ethanol blend with water in the tank and carry it through the system?

Umm...Knowing that the ethanol in our ethanol blend gasoline absorbs moisture. Maybe absorbs too much moisture and also causes the fuel blend to break down & stratify. If so then by the time the fuel level dropped down to "reserve" you'd be pumping a significantly higher percentage of 'contaminants" to useable fuel.

So if you drained the tank then added "Dry Gas" or something like "Techron" followed by a fresh tank of fuel you would clean out the FI system as good as any Honda Tech would be able to do.

Well, that's my 2¢, YMMV

Tim

Hi Tim
Sorry to read about your problem. I can only offer my advice based on this same problem on a few of the old cars I have rebuilt / restored.
I have found the problem is the fuel either having been left to long / or a filling station having let its tanks get to low before restocking. there was a local garage here in my town that did just that, and got hit with a lot of bills from motorists having to have their fuel systems cleaned out.
Here in the uk if the fuel is left to long it takes up moisture and emulsifies forming a sort of tarry sludges. which left in the tank it coats the bottom of the fuel filter reducing fuel flow or even stopping it.
I have tried numerous fuel "cleaners / additivies but it never clears the problem properly, I have found the only way to clear the problem completely is the remove the tank and steam clean it or replace it with a refurbished tank.
I have good results with a organic friendly degreaser called GK101 here (you just spray it in, leave to soak and then pressure wash out) it strips oil and grease like a hot knife through butter. and put a hot air dryer blowing through the tank for a couple of hours to throughly dry it out and then refit with a new fuel filter.
The tank is easy to remove provided you stick to the procedure in the FSM as others have said
regards Denzil

Well guys, drained tank, added fresh fuel from a different station, added a water dispersing fuel additive and got her running. Two miles into a local test flight, happened again and again it was at low speed as I approached a junction. FI light flashing one long and 3 short. Pushed her homeward for about half a mile, she started again but with difficulty so I just limped her the rest of the way at 20mph. Got into my driveway and she died again. So, I guess I'll have to pay Mr Honda a visit!

Thanks for all the help, at least I leant some new things.

cheers

Martyn

Martyn

The thought occurred to me that maybe you're not having an injector problem, even though the FI light came on, but that you may be having a coil and/or spark plug wire issue causing a misfire on that #2 cylinder. The coil and wires (replace both wires with Silverwing-specific wires) are easy enough to replace, but at this point it's anybody guess wether or not that's the real problem.

You'll need to remove the right side panel under the floor board to access the coil and the tunnel cover to access the spark plug wires. BTW the spark plug caps unscrew from the plug wires. There's another 2¢ Added to the opinion pot.

Tim

Or you could save yourself some blood, sweat, tears, and broken bodywork tabs and take it to a Honda dealer and let them sort it.

Over the other side of the Pond you seem to forget that Dramhunter can't buy a Honda Service Manual for the FJS Silver Wing as easily as you can buy FSC Silver Wing Service Manuals in the U.S.

I dont know if this will help anyone, but I came across this link that purports to be a "free" download of a FJS Factory Service Manual pdf.

http://sweat98.ucaccord.net/tricia/h/honda-fjs-600-service-manual-ypgexez.pdf

Tim

Thanks Tim and Meldrew. SWing has winged it's way to Mr Honda down in Belfast. Cost £25 (about $40) to transport it 16 miles and then it will be £49 ($75) to just diagnose the problem. Oh well. How do those costs compare with elsewhere?

I've always done my own maintenance/troubleshooting on all my previous bikes, always bought a Haynes workshop manual for them and teaching my daughter the same with her little learner bike. But there is no Haynes manual for the Silverwing and the FSM is very expensive. If I had one I'd tackle most things but don't like going in blind.

I came across that link before Tim but am a bit suspicious of it, sorry.

Will let everyone know the final outcome.

cheers

Martyn

Hi Martyn
If you go to the forum, Maintanese, Tips and Hints section look for "Service Manual" posted on January 25 2015.
Its a place in the states, but I bought my service manual there and it cost £37.00 including shipping to the uk. I can not fault it so far apart from the binding is starting to come loose. but it allowed me to rebuild both my sons Swing from scratch and I have now just finished rebuilding a second Swing for myself taking them both down to the chassis refinishing, and then rebuild/refurbishing them. My sons has got 179,832 miles on it and mine has got 80,626miles on it so the book has been worth every penny. Both bikes now look and run like new.
regards denzil.

Hi Denzil, thanks for that I will look there. Maybe I'll get as adventurous as you! Mine only has 12800 on her so far but I hop eto put many more on.

Thanks

Martyn

Denzil, just bought one, cheers!

Had a similar experience with my 2005 (15000 kms) Silverwing600.
Last bar flashing ... low on fumes ..! Put 1 liter of stabalized gas bought in the fall in the tank. Got to the gas station and added 14 liters and went for 185 km ride. No problems! That night started it to put it in the shed and it ran as if on 1 cylinder and had to keep a bit of throttle to keep it from stalling out.

This thread flashed before my eyes. Maybe the low fuel level put dirt or water into the gas lines.?
Next morning it started but very quickly went to a very slow idle. Went for about 30 kms and all seemed fine. But the level on confidence is suffering. Will she give me trouble - or not ? Maybe time for some preventative maintenance and give her a dose of sea-foam. Any comments or similar experiences?
Mike

dramhunter, the error code says injector fault, i had a xmax 250 before this and might engine light came on and it ran like a pig, dealer did a check and it identified a sensor but the sensor checked out ok, bought one anyway and it wasnt that. Ran it for about 3 or 4 months like this and then was emailing yamaha uk, they gave me some other areas to check and i had it stripped to engine chassis and wheels! was checking all wiring by disconnect and meter test, that s how i found the problem. One wire had broken in a connector plug on one of the engine sensors, solder back into place and ran file till i sold it for the wing. Might just be worth checking out all the connectors and their wires in teh area of fuel injection, someones already give you the fault code reading and thats all a dealer is gonna do plug a machine in charge you for the priviledge and start ordering parts till they find one that fits/cures it or they give up.

Well, my Buzz Bomb lives again! Belfast Honda were great and not too hard on the wallet considering they are a main dealer.

After being surprised at such a seemingly major fault with such a low mileage SWing (12879), doing the same basic checks I had done and agreeing that my suspicion of water in the fuel was not unreasonable, they rode it and the fault replicated. When they plugged her in they got the same fault code, no surprise. But when they attended to the indivated fault it wasn't cured, fault replicated on the road. Diagnosis was the same so they began checking other things. Finally traced it to two wires in the main loom with worn insulation shorting each other. Fixed wires, bike bombs along sweetly again.

Thanks to everyone for their help and input, I really appreciate it. Makes one feel less alone with a difficult problem. Oh and I bought a factory service manual from where Denzil got his. Arrived yesterday. Boy is it comprehensive but it will enable me to tackle many things with more confidence on the SWing.

Cheers
Martyn

Congratulations Martyn, it's so nice to hear that you've finally gotten the problem resolved. Do you know where, or in which area, the wire harness was worn and shorting?

Tim

Martyn thank you for the follow up, I'm glad to hear that your scooter is running well again.

The wiring was damaged in gthe main loom right below the centre of the seat, I was told. The Technician showed me phone pictires. It was what looked to be two mainly white wires, perhaps with blue stripes (I didn't have my close range glasses on!!) amongst a load of other wires. They seemed genuienly baffled about how it happened as there appears to be no strain on any wiring there.