New Puchase-2012

This may be a little long, but looking for comments:

Feb/Mar 2012 new scooter time for me and I have made listing of plus, minus for those I consider.

Have had TMAX (ok but I think expensive to fix down the road), SilverWing 600, Burgman 400, 4 Helix(maybe my favorite), Reflex(life ended by lady on Cell Phone who ran over it) and 4 Vespas over 30 year period. So I will try to organize this so readable: Those I am considering:


SilverWing @ $9099
Plus: It is a Honda, good parts service,reasonable performance,able to bolt box directly to rear wing, gas tank adequate, ok 2 up MINUS: Bad stock windshield, rear wheel removal=muffler off and packing problem, no electric outlet stock, no 4 way flashers, Heavy!

Burgman 650 @$9899
Plus: PowerWindshield, no belt replacement, easier rear wheel removal,lots of power, well area flat allowing dog's bag to fit in fine. MINUS: high fuel usage, gas tank too small, super heavy, for me goofy transmission, higher price tires than SilverWing or Burgman 400

Burgman 400 @$7599
Plus: Good fuel mileage, 4-way flashers,electric outlet, big underseat storage, OEM heated grips available, outside temp gauge, average MPG display, price, reasonable weight, box can bolt directly to wing. MINUS: Horrible stock windshield, now black wheels, rear wheel removal.

My thought at end: Both Burgman 400 and SilverWing require belt replacement, 650 Burgman does not, ALL have stepped seat--jacking passenger way up in air!

My annual mileage is now only 20,000-30,000 a year=no work to ride to. Scooter is used for everything, prefer not to drive cars, I have been primarily motorcyclist since 1955,always scooter on the side, now want to keep only one bike/scooter registered.
My present Honda NT700V great, maybe best out of the box bike you can buy, it will be going when new scooter is purchased....was purchased as stroke recovery tool, forcing use of left hand on clutch, coodinated shifting with left foot, exercise pushing the heavy thing around---I am now at maybe 98% and probably never any better. But big win=I was able to train self to put NT up on lift alone---scary first try, but I planned right. Anybody looking for good NT deal?

So above are thoughts I am putting into new scooter purchase, of course price and deal is a consideration. I thought about Kymco (good scooters, cheaper parts), Vespa is out on price, parts prices and folding up dealers. So stick with the Japanese....and I think all of the scooters I considered are still made in Japan, a plus for me.

I generally make no mods other than throttle stop(cruise control) top box but do work on right windshield combo. Givi Adjustable seemed to work best for me on SilverWing.

Being a Honda guy, I'm biased; I would simply get another Silver Wing.

I'm curious about something, John. You said the NT was purchased to help with your stroke recovery. It sounds like that worked out OK, but is your goal now to go back to a no-shift ride? If that's the case, what do you think of the VFR1200, or, for that matter, the Aprilia 850 Mana?

Someday when you feel like taking the time, I think it would be interesting to see a comprehensive list of all the bikes and scooters you've owned and what you thought of each.

Great comparision, I would go with the silverwing #2 choice would be the 400 because it sounds like you would need the fuel mileage. My silverwing never got below 52mpg.
Think you also need to consider what you used the 700 for, and that the new scooter needs the do the job of both bikes.
Good luck with you choice :-)

I own a 08 Burgman 400 and use it for just about everything from commuting to food shopping and of course Rallies and rides (I put her away for the cold winter months). As you pointed out the rear wheel is a bit of pain to remove but very doable (I just got done changing my rear tire and brakes), the stock windscreen is horrible so I replaced it with a Givi AirFlow (Huge difference), changing the final drive oil requires you to remove the CVT cover which can be a task especially for the first time and the stock rollers just aren't quite up to snuff and does limit the machines capabilities a bit but after changing them to 19g DPS really helps. All aforementioned items are relatively easy to resolve.

Above is what I really find to be the con's however I've become super efficient at taking the CVT cover off which I find to be the most annoying thing (15 minutes), the pro's are as follow: In NYC traffic I get 50mpg and on the highway at an indicated 70mph I get between 65 to 72mpg (please note this is with summer fuel and does decrease in the winter months). The ride is nice and smooth, there is storage abound with the three front compartments and the 62 liter under seat storage which holds two full face helmets with room to spare. The handling and suspension is good and does the job it was designed for, the dual headlights do a fine job of illuminating the road in front of you and the brakes do a very good job of bringing the beast to a stop. The motor has an excellent balance of power and fuel economy.

I cannot offer an opinion on 2-up riding as I haven't done any with her but from what I hear from my friends and the forums is that the 400 will do OK but the 650 is preferred for 2 up riding.

As with anything, they all have their pro's and con's and IMO the pro's outweigh the con's when it comes to the Burgman 400. The other part of the equation is what are you looking for and for me it was storage, fuel economy and reliability, I'm sure the other bikes are reliable and are better at one if not several of the buyers criteria.

Hope this helps

x

John,

I would go with the B400 or the Silver Wing myself. I know the CVT failures are very rare on the B650, but if it does happen to you, you better have the extended warranty and show records that you have done all of the maintenance. It seems that Suzuki fights the warranty work.

If I were to buy new I would wait for the Honda Integra, even though no one knows when/if it will get here, or I would go with a Silver Wing again or the B400. I don't think I could put up with a serious issue like a CVT failure, even though they are very rare. They cost about $3,000 if you can't do the work yourself.

Keep us informed.

Any particular reason the Yamaha Majesty 400 didn't get a mention. I looked at a photo of a 2012 model a couple of days ago in a really nice matt grey colour (without that horrible light brown seat that's on the 2011 US model). The US price is $6750 and considerably less expensive than a 400 Burgman.
Givi have an Airflow screen for the Majesty with better hand coverage than the Silver Wing gets, and a neat pair of tubular side holders for soft bags.

Thanks for some answers----since I have had over 75 new bikes and scooters, I have the field pretty much narrowed----and tried many others I don't want to get into anything just for the thrill and then try to dump it.

My view Maxi Scooter pretty dead in US---fine, if proven products are offered at decent prices----weak dollar/increased production costs keeping selling prices up.

I seldom keep a bike over 50,000 miles, preferring to get out at 25,000 or so.

I like scooters/they still have features I like.....like center stands, ability to haul stuff/reasonably trouble free-----but my NT requires much less diddle time. Would never consider Cruiser.

Local--I seem to be able to get better deal on SilverWing with NT as trade(but remember NT is sales flop in US, so why would dealer want to take one in trade when he cannot even get rid of those new ones he has in stock?

Suzuki---out right purchase, can get good deal.....in winter. Anybody want my NT?

650 Burgman probably out---heavy, small gas tank plus poor fuel mileage if run hard.

Pls remember I have had both new SilverWing and Burgman 400. Weakest point in both is poor wind management/plastic removal....and although I do not use dealer for service but do for waranty.....dealers not familar with product. My SilverWing had no warranty claims/Burgman had engine oil leak----finally on third try and engine out, I just walked out in showroom and bought leftover SilverWing. Dealer got it sorted out, sold it to trike rider----whose lack of skill put it in the woods a week later, totaled.

I do change drive belts with OEM at recommended intervals/use WalMart 10-40W housebrand oil and filters, changing oil at 2,000 or 60 day intervals, filters every other oil change---since '93 or so this has worked for me for over 500,000 miles------no engine blow ups or trouble.

I probably could buy anything I want---but like cheap/easy to turn around on narrow country road/easy get on and off(old age have to pee often in cold). Next week will look around----but around 1st of Jan...very slow in bike business, maybe best deal time. Once bought a SR500 new Yamaha in crate shortly after new year in Milwaukee---dealer shot me real low ball price---laid credit card on table and told him to deliver it----I got the bike and he probably lost money.

I personally prefer the ergonomics of the B400 and the B650 over the SWing, BUT the B650's potential for catastrophic CVT failure weirds me out also. Although the B400 and SWing require periodic belt replacement, in my mind, their transmissions are more reliable, much less likely to melt down and much more inexpensive to repair if there is a problem. Much as I really the B650, I won't buy one.

One feature of the B400 is that much of the bike's maintenance can be done by the average backyard mechanic...it's really a pretty simple machine and there is extensive technical support, including detailed videos about how to do the work, on B400 routine maintenance over on the Burgman website...well worth perusing before buying, even if you don't intend to do the work yourself, because it gives you a good idea about the complexity of the bike's maintenance AND the simpler a bike is to maintain, the less it costs to maintain...Also, the B400 has been in production for many years and the design is well-established and well-tested, with Suzuki making improvements over the years to increase reliabilty and maintenance intervals.

Several weeks ago, I had another look at a leftover '09 Aprilia Mana at a local dealer. Very comfortable machine and design and construction detail appear to be of excellent quality; however, after speaking with a friend of mine who works for another Aprilia/other brand dealership, he cautioned me that although Aprilias are good and reliable machines, their weak point is the supply pipeline...if the required part is not in stock in American warehouses, it can take weeks to get it from Italy. Also, if you check the dealer listings on the Aprilia website, there really aren't many of them and since I plan to be making multi-state tours next year, I don't want to be stuck in East Flypaper, North Dakota with a broken bike, no parts and no one qualified to fix it.

I remember looking at a Kymco 500 several years ago and thinking it was a pretty nice machine, but again, would be worried about availability of parts and dealerships.

I see you've eliminated the TMax primarily because of cost of servicing. That's good info to know, as I've looked at the TMax and like it a lot, but was concerned about the same thing.

Another alternative is the Yamaha Majesty. I don't much about it, other than it seems very similar to the B400. I have a riding companero who used to own and ride one extensively and she had very good luck with it and really liked it.

The Vespa 300 Super is a very attractive machine which, by all accounts, is also very reliable. There is a guy in Canada who has travelled extensively throughout western Canada and the US on his and he's had very good luck with it. As with the Aprilia, I'd worry about parts and dealer support availability and I suspect that the performance of the bike, while good for its design, would not really lend itself to long distance high-speed touring, the guy in Canada notwithstanding. I really like the bike's design and appearance.

I like the new Honda, described in another thread, BUT funds are, of course, limited...I don't finance motorcycles...I pay closely hoarded cash for them...so although the new Honda has some appeal to me, fact is that I'm guessing Honda will be asking a lot of money for it. Also, I don't buy first year production because I want the machine's bugs worked out before I plunk down my cash.

For me, I'll probably replace the SWing with a B400, as it is only me, myself and I on the machine at any given time. For me, the B400 is really the machine which best balances performance, reliability, ease of maintenance, availability of dealership support and parts. As previously noted, I also prefer its seating position.

My $0.02...Bob out

John - you and I are in somewhat similar boats... I've narrowed it down to the Silver Wing or the Burgie 400. I'm looking for a little more bike to do some touring on.

The Silver Wing is the absolute best fit but I worry about managing the weight.

I'm currently riding a Kymco Grand Vista 250 that weighs in right around 400 pounds (she is not entirely petite). At 5'4" and a 130 pounds, the Silver Wing doesn't feel heavy to me but it sure looks like it on paper and pushing it around the showroom is different than pushing it around in the real world.

The weight figures and power of the 400 look about right to me but the reach to the handlebars is just a little too far and I'm afraid I'll start irritating my shoulders and neck, making distance riding a real pain...

So, I must think about if fiddling about with the handlebars on the Burgie is worth it to me... I like the price of the bike, the lower insurance costs, the better gas mileage...

Hard to know what to do...

Carol

x

I had no idea!!

Reminds me of a few wide spots in the road here in northern California...

My Son just got a job driving an oil tanker up there in that oil patch called Williston, N.D. I will ask him if he knows where East Flypaper is. Ride Safe...Robert in Az.

JeffR_ wrote:

John,

I would go with the B400 or the Silver Wing myself. I know the CVT failures are very rare on the B650, but if it does happen to you, you better have the extended warranty and show records that you have done all of the maintenance. It seems that Suzuki fights the warranty work.

If I were to buy new I would wait for the Honda Integra, even though no one knows when/if it will get here, or I would go with a Silver Wing again or the B400. I don't think I could put up with a serious issue like a CVT failure, even though they are very rare. They cost about $3,000 if you can't do the work yourself.

Keep us informed.

FYI, the extended warranty doesn't cover belt failures which really rots.

Infernost: The warranty on my buddy's B650 covered his belt when it went out at close to 100K. He had them put in some new plugs and couple other things which is all he paid for. First plug installation btw.

Thoughts---I don't buy extended warranty-period.

My choice may be on best deal or Suzuki 4 way flashers or windshield I already have on garage for SilverWing.

Something on scooter size---scooters compared to motorcycles are putt putts---400 fine and big for touring----I made several US coast to coast on Helix, Baja----great touring platform----built in trunk and top box plus luggage on passenger seat=ability to carry lots of stuff. I had 125/150/200 2 stroke Vespas----really liked 150 as it was smoother than 200-----my machine of choice for vacations (new BMW RT was in Garage and MZ sidecar outfit) was the Vespa 150 during the 20 or so years I lived in Europe.

Probably best Scooter I ever bought--Daelim 125----couldn't break it, fine in heavy Korean Traffic---maybe 60mph downhill tailwind. two cases of beer would fit on flat floor boards, came with factory 360 degree bumpers and box and rack. Simple air/oil cooled older connection to Honda. In US


After 56 years of riding, using bike on job, etc---I am trying to learn to slow down and enjoy the ride----would really like to try West Coast again @250 miles a day....sleeping in bushes, motel every third day (I only use old style where you can walk right into room.) Once out of the south fast food is ok.

Is there any chance of finding a new Honda CN250 Helix sitting in the corner of a showroom somewhere in the US.

There has been a near new 1200 miles Helix sitting in a Chattanooga shop for the 18 months I have been here.

I offered to buy it several times at fair price-----they are holding out to screw somebody.

John,

my replacement would be the Burgman 400. Rideability and economy being the winning combination for me.

Good luck in your decision.

ulflyer wrote:

Infernost: The warranty on my buddy's B650 covered his belt when it went out at close to 100K. He had them put in some new plugs and couple other things which is all he paid for. First plug installation btw.

That's not what I was told but I will look into it further. My friends belt broke at 30,000 miles and it wasn't covered by the extended warranty.

OldCoastie wrote:

...

The weight figures and power of the 400 look about right to me but the reach to the handlebars is just a little too far and I'm afraid I'll start irritating my shoulders and neck, making distance riding a real pain...Carol

Carol, the butt-rest on the B400 is adjustable and will allow you to sit farther forward and more upright.

John, besides the B400 (which I'm rather partial to for some reason ), you might wish to look at the new BMW C650GT. I don't see them making great claims for the gas mileage, but it would have much of what you're looking for. Unlike the Honda Integra, they are showing it on their website as a 2012 model in the USA.

Chris

Carol, along with moving the buttrest forward, you can install some handlebar setbacks that will bring them back 1 inch or more. Wires will all work, and installation is easy.

For DABOO----I have been BMW owner since 1958----would only consider if they were free. BMW has and does build some real junk....break it and they tell you, you ride too much. Actual experience of mine in Germany.....and I speak German as well as English. My then new BMW R80RT, went 56,000 miles, first year-----most paid for by my job. Great job.

Burgman 400 on price good deal for me and would be my second one.
SilverWing fine,too---might be to do better on trade with my NT700V.

First week in Jan. 2012, probably slowest bike sales time----will really shop seriously----have very high limit unused credit at ready.

Might add something in new purchase consideration---unsprung weight---SilverWing has engine mounted solid, Burgman 400 I believe engine/drive train all pivot, 1946 Vespa style.

Didn't bother me when I had 400 Burgman----but could/can at high mileages Helix @ 30,000 miles Honda bought me new mufflers (on 3 different bikes) as the guts were shaken apart by constant pounding from road. AND the constant moving of cables/wire can be problem.... Helix I recall had temp gauge wire problem.

John, if I had any one gripe with the Suzuki Burgman it would be the corroding frame.

Not an issue if you live away from the coast but if you do live coastal it is well worth the time and effort taking the tupperware off and treating the frame before taking on the road for any serious riding.

You are correct regards the Burgmans pivoting engine.

The Integra has bigger wheels than the BMW, DCT vs. CVT. Claimed 65 mpg vs. ? and will probably sell for less. Not to mention Honda reliability. Ride Safe...Robert in Az.

I'll toss in my two cents worth on the Burgman 400. After owning one for just shy of 49,000 miles and the successor for 10,000, I feel I have a little experience with them.

FWIW, John, the muffler on my 2007 400 never failed. It was however taking on a slightly deeper tone. Probably in another 10,000 miles or so, it might've.

Corrosion on the frame is a concern of mine. I saw extremely little on my 2007 400. Perhaps three tiny places and they were easily taken care of in a few minutes. I was very pleased with the quality of the paint job.

I'm not so sure on my 2008 400. There are places where I see something brown at the weld joints. Is it rust, or primer? It appears like a clear coating is over it, so I'm taking a wait and see attitude. At 10,000 miles and a few miles of riding in rain, it doesn't appear to be any worse.

If you put in some 18 or 19 gram DPS weights in it and put a Givi Airflow screen on the bike, you'd probably find it more than suitable for your next bike, John.

Chris

I have experience with Givi adjustable windshield on my SilverWing--positive. I had replacement windshield on my Burgman 400, but I forgot from who.

I don't change weights or rollers----want more performance=buy another bike. However from past experience I do change them with OEM at belt replacement time, again OEM.

Have to see the deals out there. At this stage, 72, DAV--still upright after after over 1.5 million miles, I think ABS is something I need to be really interested in---my think, wet pavement!

Frame rusting----not a worry----little watching and spray of WD40 or WalMart cheaper stuff, at the joints. My Suzuki GS500E went 64,000 miles in the 15 or so months I owned it---to use phrase that used to go in Germany for Fiat----it was already rusted in literature.WD kept it in control.

Thank everybody for interest---stay tuned.

FWIW John, my 2009 Swing is the first bike I've ever owned with ABS. I'll never buy another new bike without it, unless it's something tiny like a Ruckus.

I went price shopping today---Black Friday....in bike shops it looked like bleak Friday.

Suzuki Burgman 650---$8999 plus tax=about $1000 off

Suzuki Burgman 400---$6899 plus tax=about $600 off These both are leftover floor models 2011.

SilverWing----untouched still in back room--$7878 Southern Honda Chattanooga, have bought there before, really decent pricing--2011, may 2012 all black,ABS.

So in round numbers SilverWing is about $1000 more than 400 Burgman, $1100 less than 650 Burgman.

Next will be to see how I can do on trade...or somebody want my NT? Haven't figured out price, but maybe half way between high retail and low wholesale?


Bottom Line on today's shopping---SilverWing may be best deal for me again and make min. changes, just GIVI adjustable Windshield and bolt my Givi Box on.

Scooter market here is pretty dead-----and I think in US in general. Don't think new developed models will change too much. Near $10,000 price point a lot for putt put

Stay tuned on this.

x

As a rider---no unnessary changes---no extra wires, etc. No extras you don't have to work around them. Have found some garden plastic edging the can make some "windguards" for feet and knees. Just clip to size and self tapping screws.

My junk box has enought throttle stops, so I can come up with something for the times I need to pick/scratch nose underway.

x

what about that piaggio mp3 series scooters i havent tried any of those but i do have 06 piaggio fly 150 for playing around in town it has 16k miles on it and still runs well. the mp3 would be easy to get on and off of i guess i havent actualy seen one in person. it does have 2 wheels in front though,so you could step through and then sit down. i wonder about service though i have a local shop service mine cause its older.

MP3s are okay but I wouldn't buy one as my only bike.
They are very heavy at the front and have no feet-forward facility although someone in the States makes Highway Pegs for them.

Ride before you buy!
I have riden two: the 125 which was wildly under-powered and the 500.

A couple of people I know bought them but have changed back to 'two' wheels.

Yes, I had an MP3 for a couple of years and although I liked it and got used to it, I found the 400 a little underpowered. It felt slightly safer but it could still topple over - and it was heavy!! It was nothing like being on two wheels, which I much prefer.

I traded it in for my lovely Swing!!

Laurie

john grinsel wrote:

I went price shopping today...
Suzuki Burgman 400---$6899 plus tax=about $600 off?

So, I'm assuming you ended with a 400 Burgman for your 2012 purchase, after all of your research.

One of our friends has a 400 Majesty and the wifester a 400 Burgman. The Majesty gets much worse gas mileage, but seems to also be bullet proof like the 400 Burgman.

No one we know owns a Silverwing. That makes this forum priceless.

2013 will be my year to decide: Silverwing or...

TwoWheelers -- where in Floriduh are you? BTW, I'm stealing your spelling of Floriduh...

roadrunner wrote:

TwoWheelers -- where in Floriduh are you? BTW, I'm stealing your spelling of Floriduh...

We're down in Sebring.
Nice central location to either coast; but we usually head west toward Bradenton, Sarasota, or Punta Gorda.
Our nearest "good" Honda dealer is in Winter Haven. Lake Wales for Suzuki, Yamaha, and Kawasaki.

I do have new Burgman 2011 left over--end price around $6400 with extra Suzuki bonus coupon in the deal.

Honda salesman never followed up on my deal/offers.

I make few mods----rack for my Givi box---as box is getting old (500,000 miles ) I probably could have saved $100 or so by bolting it direct to rear frame, but didn't.
Givi adjustable windshield, not cheap does not work as well as the one for SilverWing, leg wind deflectors have tried both OEM and homemade--OEM on now,not cheap. Found source for reasonable oil filters, dealer wanted $13 for $4 filter.

New bike has been on road about 70 days--3,300 miles, no troubles, used Shell Rotella(because I had some) gas mileage, different than SilverWing. SilverWing if you really push hard, sucks a lot of gas, but is good at easy speeds. Burgman does well on freeway, 70 or so indicated, not so good on backroads as engine seems to be operating below sweet spot. Compter says 60.2 or 60.6 for recent 1000 mile trip.

Less weight, 2 plus points #1 park nose down, easier to get out #2 easy for me to put on lift.

Tires---both bikes use Bridgestone Hoops---different compound as there is different parts number. SilverWing, wore like Iron---Burgman softer and I expect 6,000 or so out of the OEM rear-----have new set of Pirelli Diablo, resting under bench @$115 the pr (delivered) from Dennis Kirk waiting to go into action.

I have no brand loyality and each new bike/scooter is adventure. I did think about Yamaha Majesty, like the seat that allows access to storage when bag on strapped to rear----but in US I think Yamaha importer has little interest in selling/promoting scooters, nobody asked me to buy.

Last, unlinked brakes real plus, allowing use/dragging rear brake as balancing aid for feet up u turns on country roads---ABS plus, could be life saver in wet. SilverWing while the rear comes on first, there always the fear of topple if the front comes on in middle of u turn, using brake.