Car (DarkSide) Tire Experience

First topic message reminder :

A separate Car (Darkside) Tire sub-forum has been created which is only visible via a private group.

This will allow

- members with Car (Darkside) Tire experience
- members interested in Car (Darkside) Tire details/experience

to freely discuss without banter or interference.

Please post to this thread to request access to the private sub-forum.

The anti-Car (Darkside) Tire banter may still occur in the public portion of the forum.

All posts will be deleted from this thread as the requests for access are completed.

Granted.

Please add me to the thread/group.

are car tires superior?

Superior to what?

I was using a Sumitomo car tire (No Longer Available), it was large enough in diameter to alter the final drive ratio and lower my cruising RPMs by ~500 RPMs, and increase my fuel economy even when the odometer error was factored in. That tire lasted 40,000 miles.

I am currently using a Hercules Raptis car tire. I got the tire and wheel from a friend who was parting out his SW. I may be changing back to a Metzler tire though because I am experiencing a slight handle bar shake at 25-30 mph. The front tire is a brand new Diablo so cupping isn't the issue that causing the slight shakes. It could be due to a bad Raptis tire or a bad rim. I wont know until I figure out how to determine if the tire itself is bad or the wheel is bent (doubtful) or the splines in the wheel are worn due to his losing the axle nut on his old scoot.

If the tire proves to be damaged then I won't hesitate to install another Raptis.

Tim

I would like access to the Darkside forum too. I have Metzlers front and back, and dyna beads for balancing. While the ride is very smooth, there is a bad handlebar shake. At low speeds I can't take hands off at all, at speed it takes a few seconds to appear. I understand that motorcycles will wobble in motion, but this is more of a shake than a wobble.
Also interested in eventually going darkside, and keep the Metzler rear tire in half decent shape if I do get a buyer for the SWing.
Thanks.

cotetoi,

I just gave you permission to access the Darkside topic.  Make a post there to see if you have access. Have fun.

The steering nut might be loose ,I tighten the nut to the point that the wheel don,t turn to the left with wheel off the ground and my shaking stopped.

Thank you, Jeff for access to the Darkside.
And to tinman. I'll check the steering nut and make adjustments as necessary.

I have a General radial car tire on the back of my 2012 Burgman 650. After I got used to it in a few short miles, I like it.

Sam:)

If the steering shakes at 30 to 60 klph when hands off the bars ,the steering nut is to loose . With the spanner to adjust shock load , tighten the bearing nut with the tip of your finger ,that will give you about 10 to 12 lbs of tork. With a fish scale pull the front steering to the left and right  that will give you about 12 lbs of pressure. The 9 lbs recommended is to loose.

Thanks for the tip. I think that maybe the trick would be to really tighten that spanner then back off and torque it to about 15 ft lbs. Oh boy, now I get to pull of the front end again. That thing has been off so many times I dont know if there are any tabs and captive nuts left intact. If I only had the tool that The Bern made up to grab that spanner nut I could get away with doing thru the top.

Tim

Joined the dark side today. After getting down to the cords in 8400 miles on my scooter tire, I went to the dark side and put on a Zeetex T2000 155/70/r13 75T car tire. Just $62 mounted and out the door, so affordable. Put about 50 miles on it so far, town driving, highway, and some mildly curvy country road, and it seems to ride better than my scooter tire did. Will make a 600 mile trip this week end, so will know more then.

In 2012 I  purchased a 175 70 13 aurora winter tire at Walmart for $ 5.00 ,a winter left over. At the time my Swing was a 2 wheeler and with a short in seam ,it was to tall for me. Now that I have a Trigg Trike installed I no longer on tip toes to balance the Swing , I decided to try this large tire after warring out  2 Hercules Raptic tires. After 3 weeks on testing ,I find the  handling some what different , my odometer reads different of by 6 kl in 100 kl test ,the acceleration is slower then the 155 Raptic,the engine bracking is less then before, went from 180 kl to 140 kl to 1/2 a tank , need to compensate for the accurate for speed . I would not recommend for a 2 wheel swing but for me and my triked up swing it will do fine till my next tire change .I have a harder dime to squeal my tire at a stop sigh.

please add me to the darkside....dan

ridr44 I have added you to the darkside section of the forum. Let me know if you can access it or not.

Just got back from a 500 mile ride on my new Zeetex ZT2000 155/70/r13 75T car tire. Ride seemed better than the old scooter tire, and performed well. The tire shop set it at 40 PSI, and I think I will leave it at that, since the ride was so smooth. When the front wears out, I will try double dark side.

Double D siding did not work well for me.Front tire cupping was very pronounce causing serious head shake and vibration to the steering. Going back to the Michelin pure sport was the way to go .The front MC tire life span is very good (35 k kl ) . A wider front tire change the handling of my Swing.

tinman wrote:

Double D siding did not work well for me. Front tire cupping was very pronounce causing serious head shake and vibration to the steering. Going back to the Michelin pure sport was the way to go .The front MC tire life span is very good (35 k kl ) . A wider front tire change the handling of my Swing.

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I use a Silverwing 150/70-13 rear tire on the front of one of my 250 Honda Reflex scooters. It works pretty good for when I pull the single wheel trailer or when using dirt/gravel roads. But when riding on smooth pavement and without pulling the trailer, the bike feels excessively heavy up front. With the front being loaded lighter it seems to feel different and does not track smoothly because of the extra tire width.

Not sure if it would be similar to my experience with the Silverwing rear tire on my Reflex, but I don't think I'll be trying a scooter rear tire on the front of my Silverwing. I don't think it would really be necessary. Sure it might seem possible for a scooter rear tire to last longer up front. (MAYBE) But the way it gets used up front is different than the way the wider tire works at the rear. Hard for me to say with absolute certainty, but going by the experience with a rear tire on the front of my Reflex, It really may not be worth the odd, heavy feel. But YMMV if you try it.

In my experience, scooter front tires typically last about twice as long as a scooter rear tire. So that might be about 12,000 to 16,000 miles maybe for the front. Car tire should last about 30,000 miles +/- ?miles. So for 28K-30K Darkside miles = 1 car tire for the rear + 2 or 3 front tires. --- 28K-30K standard scooter tire miles = 4 or 5 scooter rear tires + 2 or 3 front tires. Again, YMMV

Usually on a motorcycle forum when someone questions the wisdom of going darkside the practitioners of such become defensive on the subject. In opposition I can only say that motorcycle (and scooter) tires are designed and constructed differently than car tires. It would seem there is a reason for this. I find it hard to believe it's just greedy motorcycle tire makers who want to sell tires that wear out faster so that they can sell more. I'd agree that on a trike it doesn't make much difference but then a trike is more like an auto than a motorcycle. It doesn't lean on curves.

One reason car tires last longer is because most of them are made with much harder rubber in the tread area. They also tend to have softer sidewalls than motorcycle tires. There's likely a reason that bike tires tend to have much stiffer sidewalls and have softer rubber in the tread.

But of course most everyone who tries a car tire thinks it's much better than a bike tire. So be it. I'll stay with bike tires.

exavid wrote:

Usually on a motorcycle forum when someone questions the wisdom of going darkside the practitioners of such become defensive on the subject.

Often they become defensive because it is not just someone questioning the wisdom of going Darkside. Many times they are vitriolic attacks... sometimes becoming personal and unnecessarily mean and nasty. It is a common hazard to Darksiders. Some times they (Darksiders) are trying to correct misconceptions and outright incorrect information as I will do here for you. If that is seen as being defensive, then I wonder why they wouldn't see their questioning of the Darksiders motives as being offensive. BTW, thank you for stating your opinion without adding vitriol.
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exavid wrote:

In opposition I can only say that motorcycle (and scooter) tires are designed and constructed differently than car tires. It would seem there is a reason for this.

There are several reasons actually. And yes, it is well understood (and quite obvious) they are designed and constructed differently. But this does not prevent them from being used successfully and safely on bikes. It is also understood that the rims are different, but in practice this has not prevented them from being mounted and there have not been reported incidents of catastrophic loss of air or tires coming off of the rim.  
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exavid wrote:

I find it hard to believe it's just greedy motorcycle tire makers who want to sell tires that wear out faster so that they can sell more. I'd agree that on a trike it doesn't make much difference but then a trike is more like an auto than a motorcycle. It doesn't lean on curves.

Then don't believe it. It is not greedy motorcycle tire manufacturers that sell tires that wear out faster to a captive, monopolized bike owner's market. Car tire makers make the best tires they can for cars and motorcycle tire makers make the best tires they can for bikes. There are reasons why bike tires do not last as long as car tires and I will soon explain in response to your next comment here.
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exavid wrote:

One reason car tires last longer is because most of them are made with much harder rubber in the tread area. They also tend to have softer sidewalls than motorcycle tires. There's likely a reason that bike tires tend to have much stiffer sidewalls and have softer rubber in the tread.

The main reason car tires last longer than bike tires or rather why bike tires wear out sooner than car tires is because of the tread layout. Car tires spread load and wear across the full width of the available tread. Bike tires on the other hand have a rounded profile so that only 1/4 to 1/3 of the tread width on the bike tire can ever be on the ground at any one given time. And since bikes spend most of their time upright, the small center section of a bike tire tread carries the load and wears the most and quickest. Even though the car tire compound is softer, it lasts longer because of the much larger area for load and wear distribution.

Car tire tread lays flat on the road and the softer sidewall of car tires help maintain that contact during turns. Motorcycle tires have thicker, stiffer sidewalls to help support the rounded profile of the tread section.

One of the most misunderstood things and probably the starkest misconception is that motorcycle tire rubber compound is softer than car tire rubber compound... It in fact is not. Car tire rubber compound is softer than motorcycle tire rubber. Durometer (a measure of material hardness) will show that to be true. Only bike racing tires come close to the Durometer numbers and softness of car tire compound. It is the rounded profile shape of the bike tire that makes it so smooth and consistent in turns that dooms it to a shorter usable life. If it were given the same hardness of tire compound as car tires, they would wear even faster than stock tires... they would wear out fairly quick as bike racing tires would.
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exavid wrote:

But of course most everyone who tries a car tire thinks it's much better than a bike tire. So be it. I'll stay with bike tires.

Of course they do, because in many ways they are superior to bike tires. But they are not for everybody since riding styles and tolerance to differences vary from rider to rider. To each his own.

I'm not denigrating anyone who prefers CTs to MTs.  I've ridden on both on Goldwings. On a road trip I traded bikes with a friend who went darkside on his GL1500. Riding both bikes to compare them I felt his bike handled a lot like a motorscooter or bike that had worn it's center tread flat. It took more pressure on the down side grip to hold the bike in a curve as well as more pressure to initiate a curve. Similar to the effect of a sidecar bike operating without the hack. A friend had a gl1500 with a hack that wasn't very pleasant to ride without the hack because the steering rake of the fork had been increased. It definitely took more effort in the curves. The CT I rode on wasn't as pronounced but I didn't like the way my friend's bike handled in the twisties.
Recently I replaced the tires on my scooter. The new tires, of the same kind, made my scooter feel like it had power steering. I can only think that the more rounded cross section was the cause.
I never said anyone was likely to have an accident or sudden blowout using CTs on a bike. There's enough anecdotal evidence against the slight difference in rim shape causing a CT to deflate or collapse
when riding. I don't know if there's more or less tendency for a CT to come off the rim if the tire was holed when riding.
My only reason for not wanting to go darkside is that I'd rather pay the premium to use MTs on my bikes for reasons of improved handling. There is a difference.

exavid wrote:

I don't know if there's more or less tendency for a CT to come off the rim if the tire was holed when riding.
My only reason for not wanting to go darkside is that I'd rather pay the premium to use MTs on my bikes for reasons of improved handling. There is a difference.

Improved is a subjective term. As I said; to each his own. I find the handling acceptable and well within the realm of safety. I place a premium on durability and longevity a car tire provides over a conventional tire. There is a difference there too.

True, I concede that CTs due last longer than MTs on darksider bikes. No argument there. But there is no free lunch. You gain more miles per tire, I gain the handling I want.

There is (somewhere) an SAE paper on difference in car vs bike rims.

From my sidecar experience----car tire (2CV) on rear of MZ sidecar outfit=respoke/special rim and tube. Worked fine sidecar. Object, I guess, longer tire life. To best of my knowledge, against law in Germany/Insurance rules, too. Tried one time solo=not fun to ride. Further EML conversion (sidecar) required special rims, too, for car tires.

My take=since bikes/scooters lean and steer are related, best to stay on MC tires.

In SilverWing case....it handles bad enough on MC tires, no need to make it worse

I never thought the two SWs I've had handled poorly. They felt pretty nimble to me coming from years of riding that 900lb. behemoth. I rode them on freeways and country roads as well as in town and never felt their performance and handling was poor. I will say my GT handles a bit better but it's a newer design plus having more road clearance and 15" rims on both ends.
I keep looking around, one of these days I'll spring for a nice SW to go with the GT. It's always nice to have a spare. That way when one needs maintenance one isn't out of a two wheeler.

add me to darkside of the force

Please add me to the darkside force Thanks

Am interested in tire sizes that work on the Swing. Have ridden the reflex 25k with a Yokahama car tire with no issue.

Add me to the darkside!

The 155 70 13 hercules rapture works very well,or any tire that size . the 165 65 13 wall mart or any other Chinese brand .The 155 70 13 has a rounder profile ,you can look at my photo album. I am on my 3rd DS tire  ,two 155 70 13  ,one 175 70 13.

tinman wrote:

The 155 70 13 hercules rapture works very well,or any tire that size . the 165 65 13 wall mart or any other Chinese brand .The 155 70 13 has a rounder profile ,you can look at my photo album. I am on my 3rd DS tire  ,two 155 70 13  ,one 175 70 13.

3rd Darkside tire? The advantage of going to the darkside is that the tire lasts "forever". The Sumitomo I used on my '03 S'Wing lasted 40,000 miles before I changed it because I was uncomfortable with the edge tread wear at the side wall. The main contact surface tread could have, easily, lasted for another 40K miles though. So, what kind of mileage have you accumulated which brings you to your 3rd darkside tire? Or was there some type of road debris tire failure?

Beside a Hercules Raptis have you used any other darkside brand, and what have been the results of using those different brands? What brand is the 175-70 13 tire?

Tim

Tinman, I'm looking for lower RPMs and higher mph, what if any mods needed to use the 175/70/13. Any tire contact on the inner fender or stationary parts?

I am on my 2nd year with my 175 70 13 snow tire aurora wall mart tire with 30 k kl and good for another 30 k kl .I picked up this tire for $ 5.00,total $12.00 with taxes .I offered this DS tire free to anyone on this forum 4 yrs ago ,but no takers .I could not install it when my Swing was a 2 wheeler with my short inseam.snow tire have twice the thread debt . with my trike install my hercules rapter was replaced at about 30 k kl with still life in it . a MC tire with a trike kit last about 5 k kl,for me it's a no brainer with 22 to 25 k kl a summer . My 155 70 13 hercules had the same riding capabilities as a mc tire, like it's on rails. the tire debpt is shallow compared to the sommito ( not available anymore ) .That is why all of the other tire brand will do. A 13 " tire is hard to find in Canada,much bigger selection in the USA at 1/3 the cost.

the only hang up with the 175 70 13 is a bigger flat surface and will tend to up right itself.you will also raise the seat hight by about 1" . There is no rubbing of body parts.The 155 70 13 wares out faster dew to a 1 1/2 "of ground contact (almost the same as a mc tire after 2k kl of  ware on them .The 165 65 13 is almost the same circumference as the 155 70 13 but it will last longer then the 155 70 13.( more rubber contact to the road). My next ds tire will be a 165 65 13 as they are more available then the 155 70 13. Walmart has a good selection.Don't wast your money on brand names they are harder to fit on a mc rim. If you want to lower the rpm go to Dr Pulley sliders,it lowers rpm by 500 rpm.

Anyone tried a studded tire?

:lol!: My 175 aurora winter tire had the stud holes ready for stud installation and thought about installing them for winter driving . =40 whether did not appeal to me with the wind chill factor at 60 mph.

I google tyre size and low and be hold a new reasonable source of tyres, ASDA you have to take your wheel to an appointed fitter . The selection for 155 70 13 is excellent cheapies and brand name I personally liked the look of the Dunlop tyre appeared to have rounded edges . Wortyh a look if your thinking about going Darkside.

Not even sure if can access Darkside , if not please give me access , I'm very interested . Regarding mounting of tires and I'm not sure where I saw it but the guy removed a tire and replaced a new one using  cable ties . Then of course there would be new valves and balancing to source as well.

Be warned, in the uk darkside is illegal, an mot failure and your insurance company will spit the dummy out too.

Please add me to the Darkside.

Are you sure you can't get to it now?  I lifted the restrictions to have to go there with special permission.  Try to access it again and get back to me if you can't?  thanks

https://www.silverwing600.com/f6-darkside-car-tire

My bad. I can. Thanks!!!

enjoy the section.

please add me to this forum. I'm going to be putting shoes on the Wing and am thinking of darksiding.
I should have profile etc.

First read SAE paper on car rim beads and mc wheel beads....they are different. If car tires are so great road racers would be using them!

Well,,, here we go again.... Just seriously peruse the many historical posts. Then make your own informed decision. Good Luck.

........No, I am your father.

                                                     

Darksiding isn't for everyone. I've been darksiding for close to ten years. Regardless of the naysayers, it works, and the improvement in wet traction and tire wear is phenomenal.  I've done it on my GoldwingGL1500, Burgman 650 Executive, and two Yamaha Majesty 400s. From experience, not all tires are created equal and will not work as well as others. I look for a tire with a slightly rounded edge. Another thing I do, is to run them at much higher pressures, usually 38 to 44 PSI.( 48-50 on the Goldwing), to get the best performance and ride. Too low(25-30) causes the center of the tread to "belly" slightly resulting in edge wear and possibly a slight wiggle sensation, at high speeds. A pyrometer helps immensely when setting rear tire pressure for best results. My DS bikes are way more capable of cornering well, than I am.

deadhorse:





And I'm ought of here! Y'all give those old horses a break.

Agreed, In fact there's not much left of that horse.