Carbon buildup

This works with all types of combustible engines. I once had a diesel service van that was loosing power,and the valves and piston had carbon buildup,and was told to get repaired,at a costly labour cost.A old retired mechanic gave me a trick that can save money.You can buy a 6 once bottle with water mix with ammonia ,warm up the engine and rev it so not to stall,and pore it in the throttle body.You would not believe the carbon that came out of the exhaust. When cool water contacts the red hot carbon ,it explodes leaving the pistons valve and cylinder head clean free of carbon buildup, He calls it ( a mechanic's tune up and it works ) Those old mechanics knows a thing or 2,that the shops wont tell you. I don't no if you can still get this product , but It works with ice cold water.

Yes this is a very old mechanic trick, but you have to be careful water will not compress. If you get too much water in the cylinder it can break the cylinder, head, piston or blow a head gasket. There used to be a mister type device that old race car drivers used. Here is a video on how to remove carbon deposits inside a car engine with water.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv4a3k-6Z4w

I looked at that video and I thought that he was using way to much water for my liking . I prefer using the 6 once container at the time and slowly poor it in and repeat if needed.The engine must be hot .You can control water pressure from a hose,IMO.

tinman, I agree with you about not using a hose. I just posted the link to show someone using water. I have done this on a car but not my bike. When I did this on a car I just used a cup or a old beer can. The beer can had to be opened with a church key(can opener)so that tells you how long ago it was. I preferred a can because I could hold my thumb over one hole so I could better control the flow.

A few oz's of RXP gas treatment with a full tank of gas works great

buckwild47 wrote:

A few oz's of RXP gas treatment with a full tank of gas works great

I read on their website that one ounce treats 10 gallons of fuel. Wouldn't you only need less than half an ounce to treat our 4 gallon S-Wing tank?
I look forward to picking up some of this RXP stuff when we pass through Dallas this August.

My thoughts,

When the spark plugs look fine...
Save time and money ... do nothing.


Eddy.

I've heard great things about Techron which can be bought at Chevron dealers. Although I'm not an expert on the reasons for carbon buildup, perhaps prolonged use of cheap gas and/or not enough high speed riding can contribute to carbon accumulation. That's why I stick to top tier stations (Chevron, Shell, Union 76, etc) as much as possible.

model28a wrote:

Yes this is a very old mechanic trick, but you have to be careful water will not compress. If you get too much water in the cylinder it can break the cylinder, head, piston or blow a head gasket. There used to be a mister type device that old race car drivers used. Here is a video on how to remove carbon deposits inside a car engine with water.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bv4a3k-6Z4w  

Did anyone tried this on s-wing? aluminium block?

Anyone?

Ofer Rothmann wrote:

Did anyone tried this on s-wing? aluminium block?

Not me - I would not have the intestinal fortitude to do this unless I was really desperate! The question I ask, Is what performance improvement would you expect to get by putting water in your engine and how would you measure the performance. Unless you can identify both a problem and a benefit - why would you risk it?

If an engine is that carbonized, you would have spark knock from pre-ignition that would quickly lead to holed piston crowns, valve train damage from the valves contacting the piston crowns, and a large loss in power. Apparently the water treatment works on older automotive engines without any electronic controls. A commercial solvent would be my first suggestion. If that fails, what have you got to lose by trying water treatment? Removal of the cylinder head and a complete cleaning of the combustion chambers, pistons, and valves would certainly solve the problem, but that would be expensive and a PITA.

bigbird wrote:

..... you would have spark knock from pre-ignition ..... what have you got to lose by trying water treatment?

In summary, no need to do the water treatment UNLESS there is spark knock fros pre-ignition? I can buy into that approach - but I would try someting less drastic and more mainsteam first.

Dimond wrote:

In summary, no need to do the water treatment UNLESS there is spark knock fros pre-ignition?  I can buy into that approach - but I would try someting less drastic and more mainsteam first.  

I, like you, would NEVER put water into my intake manifold to reduce carbon unless it was a last resort.

If there is a loss in performance, preignition, and carbon deposits on the spark plugs, then we have a problem, Houston. At that point, likely only engine disassembly is the cure. But before I did that, I'd try the water. Literally nothing to lose at that point.

bigbird wrote:

At that point, likely only engine disassembly is the cure. But before I did that, I'd try the water. Literally nothing to lose at that point.

+1 , and thanks for the input.

Do modern petrol engines with modern fuels and oils actually get carboned up enough to need de-coking by whatever means ?

bigbird wrote:

If there is a loss in performance, preignition, and carbon deposits on the spark plugs, then we have a problem, Houston.

That's exactly my problem...
I already changed spark plugs to Iridium, checked the valve clearance, used just about any fuel injection\system cleaner, checked the spark plug wires but still... after more than 10 minute ride the engine idle speed is not consistent and i'm getting preignition.
I think that next week I'm going to give it a try.

Ofer Rothmann wrote:

bigbird wrote:

If there is a loss in performance, preignition, and carbon deposits on the spark plugs, then we have a problem, Houston.

That's exactly my problem...
I already changed spark plugs to Iridium, checked the valve clearance, used just about any fuel injection\system cleaner, checked the spark plug wires but still... after more than 10 minute ride the engine idle speed is not consistent and i'm getting preignition.
I think that next week I'm going to give it a try.

Ofer, you need to look at the cause of your carbon buildup. It is NOT normal. My suggestion is to pull both vacuum lines from the intake manifold and check for gasoline in them. If there is ANY gas in them, your fuel pressure regulator is leaking and needs to be replaced. This is common on older high mileage Swing engines. If you don't fix the cause of the carboning problem, it will just reappear after you have wasted time and money getting rid of the carbon.

Carbon build up was common in the days of leaded gasoline and still can be found in diesels with bad injectors. It's not uncommon in two stroke engines using mixed gas/oil but less prevalent in two strokes with oil injection which varies the amount of oil determined by the engine's need at varying speeds and loads. But a serious carbon problem in four stroke engines isn't at all common today.
I've had the lids off of several older Goldwings and never found much if any carbon build up. Just because one might have an ignition problem or bad spark plug and find carbon on the spark plug really doesn't indicate a carbon build up in the engine. Normally the carbon on a misfiring spark plug is a soft sooty deposit that will burn off once the problem is corrected.
As for pouring water into the intake of any engine, yeah we did that years ago but it's not appropriate for any engine operated since the advent of no lead gasoline.

I share the same concerns with you and I think that spraying water to the cylinder will be my last option.

I bought this 2006 S-wing second hand and after I bought it I noticed that the last owner didn't service this scooter regularly when I saw the air filter for the first time is was dirty as hell (see pic) so I'm sure that my throttle body is dirty too, I will address that first and check for any air leak.

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What do you think about spraying some kind of valve cleaning solution\carbon deposits treatment solution in there?

This will clean the throttle body a treat Ofer .............

Thanks I hope that I will find this brand in Israel..

I've been using Sea Foam for years for periodic carburetor and injector cleaning. Normally I'm not a fan of miracle in a can but the stuff works. It's mostly naptha with some other additives like a lot of fuel residue cleaners but I've had better luck using it over others. Auto parts stores and Walmart have the stuff. I use a dose of it every six months or so in the cars and bike.

Star Tron seems to be the liquid of choice for many, followed by Techron.

http://mystarbrite.com/startron/

I'm not endorsing it, as I've never used it or needed to.

From what I understand both Sea Foam & Star Tron are fuel additives,as such they will not pass through the throttle body on a fuel injected system which is what Ofer is wanting to clean

The Bern wrote:

From what I understand both Sea Foam & Star Tron are fuel additives,as such they will not pass through the throttle body on a fuel injected system which is what Ofer is wanting to clean

Actually Ofer hasn't even inspected his throttle body yet. He suspects it may be dirty. I doubt if it will be, as there is no PCV system like that in automobile engines. The PAIR valve and solenoid is just a means to inject air into the exhaust manifold for complete hydrocarbon burning in the exhaust system and cat/muffler. Other than the PAIR valve and the carbon canister system for CA, there are no other emission controls that would cause carboning of the throttle plates and bodies. There is an airbox breather tube to drain any accumulated water out of the airbox, but AFAIK, there is no means of venting crankcase vapours back into the intake for burning, which is the main cause of throttle body deposits.

Oh well,that's me told :not worthy: 

The Bern wrote:

Oh well,that's me told :not worthy: 

On no. The first member I've pissed off since returning.
Something about zebras and stripes?

But the new me says, I could very well be wrong about everything. Does anyone know if crankcase gases are reintroduced into the intake, or is an oil/air separator used in the cylinder head? I could't tell looking at the service manual. Anyone have the cylinder head off and know more?

bigbird, I didn't see anything offensive in your post.
The Bern your posts are as worthy as anyones. All posts here are just given opinions for the OP to use as they see fit. Rarely do all answers to a question match. When they do match it is usually a question that could be answered with a search in Maintenance, Tips and Hints.

This thead has been very informative - Thanks!

bigbird wrote:

Does anyone know if crankcase gases are reintroduced into the intake, or is an oil/air separator used in the cylinder head? I could't tell looking at the service manual. Anyone have the cylinder head off and know more?

In looking at p. 1-34 of the service manual, there is a breather tube connecting the cylinder head to the intake manifold. I changed my mind about possible carbonization of the throttle plates and bores. Blowby gas is definitely recirculated back into the intake for burning instead of being vented to the atmosphere. Carbonization is a real possibility.

If you ride your scooter/bike a lot and fast, I think carbon build up not a problem===not to worry.

I use cheap gas and now in 300,000 miles of rubber band drive scooters, no build up, pulled plug out of my 32,000 miles Burgman 400 and replaced it with cheapest NGK---so there is another 30,000 miles or so.

My highest mileage at trade time---Helix 50,000 miles, had 4 Helix---they were trouble free, easy belt change, broke rubber intake manifolds. Back to carbon---all of my bikes are bought new, soon changed into used---so I know their history.

Best deal ride and not worry or worse screw things up.

Today I tested the affect of injecting water to the cylinder on my car (2001 VW golf mk4).
My car has 180,000 km on it and it always used unleaded fuel, I serviced the car on time with original parts and recently (5000 km ago) it has been serviced with filters(air, fuel, oil), synthtic oil, spark plugs and new valve cover gasket (leaked).
Recently I had same problem with the idle not being stable and a lot of engine noise (no ticking or anything -just loud).
Today I disconnected the air hose from the air filter housing and the throttle body when the engine was hot and cleaned the throttle body with carb cleaner(it wasn't dirty at all) and then sprayed about 300ml of water to the throttle body.

After I finished I connected the air hose back and went for a 15 minute drive.
At first I felt like the car doesn't want to rev more then 3k RPM but after a few minutes of driving everything returned to normal.

I can clearly hear that the engine is working a lot smoother and the Idle is stable on 900 RPM (normal), I will continue with another session of 300ml of water to my car followed by some kind fuel system cleaning solution and I'm going to do the same thing on my S-wing as well- I am very happy with the results .

Ofer Rothmann wrote:

and then sprayed about 300ml of water to the throttle body. 

4 quick questions if you don't mind answering:

1) At what rpm did you hold the throttle while injecting the water?
2) Did the engine ever stall while spraying in the water?
3) What did you use to spray the water in?
4) How long did it take you to spray in the 300mL of water?

The reason for these questions is because I have no experience with water carbon cleaning, and if I were to try it on a friend's beater car, not my own of course  :lol!:, I would want a baseline to start with.

Thanks.

1. About 2000 RPM, the reason for that is because when you spray the water the RPM go down and you don't want it to stall, on the other hand you don't want to rev it on high RPM because water doesn't compress and can cause damage.
2. I didn't let the engine stall, when the RPM go down a lot stop spraying and let it go back up.
3. I have a bottle(don't know the name) the you compress with pressure and spray .
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1272962
4. I didn't look at my watch but I guess 3 minutes (approx.).

Because this is my first time using that method I took it very slow, also I watched few hours of video's using water\sea foam and all kind of products in the same methods on Youtube  before I got b.... to do it on my own.

In the next round I will adjust the flow for 1 minute.
Look at this:

my wife took the car to do some shopping and called me after 10 minutes to ask if I did something to the car (she didn't know) because she felt the difference.

I will take a video of the S-wing version of this procedure.

It really sounds like a lot of fixing when nothing is broken. If you don't have some difficulty with the operation of your engine why bother it? It's very hard for anyone to really know whether a chemical or water treatment is doing any good unless you know for certain there's an unusual build up of carbon or other chemicals in the engine or fuel system. Even trained mechanics can't really tell by ear whether there was an improvement in performance without physical measurement of performance and exhaust gas testing. It's just normal to think it sounds better. I've known people who swear they their car runs better after going through a car wash. That's kinda hard to believe unless they took the hood (bonnet) off the car prior to going through the wash. But they really thought there was a difference. The mind does strange things.

exavid wrote:

It really sounds like a lot of fixing when nothing is broken.

who said that nothing is wrong? the Idle is unstable and the engine sound like having a bad day.
I can't say a lot about fuel consumption or any power loss because my wife usually use the car.
My wife felt the difference for both engine noise and for the unstable Idle RPM.

exavid wrote:

But they really thought there was a difference. The mind does strange things.

Ofer Rothmann wrote:

My wife felt the difference for both engine noise and for the unstable Idle RPM.

If I understand right, Ofer said his wife could tell something had changed(as in it ran better) and she did not know he had worked on it.  
Ofer even though I have did this on old cars many years ago I don't have the courage to try it on my new car or my Silverwing. My hat goes off to you for your courage. Keep us informed on your progress. Thank you.

I stand corrected in that I forgot Ofer lives in Israel. I don't know what kind of gasoline they have or what kind of additives is in it. It could be a lot different than that available in North America. Our fuels now here in the US burn a lot cleaner than the fuels of the tetraethyl era of the pre 70s. Carbon build up is pretty rare over here now. I've replaced head gaskets in older 80s Goldwings in my old shop that had 50,000 miles or more which didn't have much if any carbon on piston heads or valve stems.
One other thing that would cause carbon buildup is a worn engine that's burning oil. That will definitely cause deposits on piston heads and under the valve heads. In those cases it's possible that dosing with water would help remove some of the build up.

Ofer Rothmann wrote:

1. About 2000 RPM, the reason for that is because when you spray the water the RPM go down and you don't want it to stall, on the other hand you don't want to rev it on high RPM because water doesn't compress and can cause damage.
2. I didn't let the engine stall, when the RPM go down a lot stop spraying and let it go back up.
3. I have a bottle(don't know the name) the you compress with pressure and spray .
http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1272962
4. I didn't look at my watch but I guess 3 minutes (approx.).

Thanks for the quick and thorough reply, Ofer.

exavid wrote:

I stand corrected in that I forgot Ofer lives in Israel. I don't know what kind of gasoline they have or what kind of additives is in it. It could be a lot different than that available in North America.

I thought a lot about this issue (and everyons input) the past few days and i decided to talk and consult with an old fishing buddy of mine who was a car mechanic until he was retired.
We talked for few hours(and few beers) about the reasons for carbon buildup and how often did he encountered this issue...

He said that almost every old or high kilometer car\bike has carbon buildup in it but most people doesn't know it because they have big engine so the driver doesn't notice the power lose\pre-ignition or the driver reflect the symptoms on the old age of the car\bike.

There are a lot of reasons why an engine is getting carbon buildup in it without anything being dramatically wrong with the engine.
1. The fuel is not high quality\ some additive in the fuel.
2. We accelerate very dramatically and not for long distances, Israel is very small and the traffic is awful.
3. Spark is not optimal, either by old battery\old or wrong clearance spark plugs\old ignition coil .
4. Fuel is not mapped correctly, bad\dirty MAF\ MAP sensor sensor or temp sensor\ vacuum lines.
5. Dirty fuel filter, Old fuel pressure regulator, dirty throttle body, dirty air filter, dirty fuel injectors.
6. Valve clearance is not adjusted correctly, timing issues.
7. Oil in the fuel from breathers return hose.
8. Driving short distances and at low RPM.

When the carbon is starting to build up(at this stage you will not notice anything being wrong) if you will not treat this issue by using additive to your fuel you are going downhill because the carbon will buildup in a faster rate then before.
When you start feeling these symptoms adding fuel additive will not clean the carbon efficiently, you need to use a more dramatic approach.
Mechanics recommend to check ,replace and\or fix all of the items listed above even if they were not verified as the root cause for this issue (I guess it is because they make more money ) and clean the engine from the inside, replacing head gasket and more..., some mechanics recommend to check and fix these symptoms if found any and treat the carbon build up from outside the engine without opening it and in the worse case if anything go wrong you will have to open the engine.

He said that he encountered this issue very often even when a customer came to do a regular service he saw the symptoms just by servicing the car, but if the customer didn't complain about it then he didn't fix it.
Even if he had taken a look inside my 180,000 km engine he would definitely find a carbon buildup so it's a no brainier, but if these symptoms accrued on a newer engine then he would have to check.
By knowing my driving habits and the route i'm taking everyday he guessed that i have carbon buildup in my engine.

Finally I asked him what did he think about the method i used on my car in order to get rid of the carbon buildup in my engine...and should i do it on my S-wing?
He started by saying that if i had come to the Dealership he worked in he would have choose a different way to treat it (Dealership rules), but now he definitely use this way first.

He had to give me a few pointers about using this method:
1. Make sure all sensors are kept dry.
2. Do this procedure slowly so the catalytic converter is not Clogged with carbon and not hydra-locking the engine.
3. Don't use anything that can leave a residue in the engine and if using water then only distilled water.  
4. this method is dangerous for the engine if not doing it correctly and you need to prepare yourself for things that can go wrong.

This is a very dangerous procedure for getting rid of carbon build up and I don't recommend using this approach if you are not willing to take the risk that something can go wrong!

After all that being said I will still use this approach two weeks from now (my Son is having a birthday this weekend   ) and try to upload the video to YouTube.