Oil Leak at Oil Filter?

Hi all Swing folks!

I'm experiencing yet another oil leak that has me confounded to say the least. I seem to be leaking oil from where the oil filter fits on. It is a minor oil leak. I am 150 miles past due for the usual oil change -- odometer is at 16,150. The oil and filter are on their way from Partzilla.com.

I check the oil at least once per month since I had an oil leak last year from a leaky stator cover silicon seal. I follow the maintenance schedule per the Honda Service Manual.

When I checked on the oil filter last week, I found that it was not tightly in place. I was able to tighten it a good ¾ turn or maybe a little more. In order to see things better, I took off the lower left side panel. The leak seems to be coming from where the oil filter seats, or perhaps the surface of the oil cooler. I used a flashlight and found no leak coming from above the oil filter area.

Have any of you had this type of oil leak issue caused by perhaps an older filter or perhaps the mounting surface it adheres to? The O-ring worn out? I’ll not be able to check until I receive the new oil and filter on Thursday.

As always, any help or advice would be greatly appreciated!

Steve in Los Angeles, California

SteveSilverWing wrote:

Hi all Swing folks!  

When I checked on the oil filter last week, I found that it was not tightly in place.  I was able to tighten it a good ¾ turn or maybe a little more.



Steve in Los Angeles, California

I'm amazed it wasn't leaking more, 3/4 to 1 turn from filter base contact to engine is all I ever have tightened a filter = no leaks. By chance was the old filter gasket left on when the new filter was installed.

oldwingguy wrote:

SteveSilverWing wrote:

Hi all Swing folks!  

When I checked on the oil filter last week, I found that it was not tightly in place.  I was able to tighten it a good ¾ turn or maybe a little more.



Steve in Los Angeles, California

I'm amazed it wasn't leaking more, 3/4 to 1 turn from filter base contact to engine is all I ever have tightened a filter = no leaks.  By chance was the old filter gasket left on when the new filter was installed.

I'll only be able to tell you if the old filter gasket was left on when I do the oil and filter change on Thursday when I receive the parts. I would be surprised because the last oil change was done at a shop that has a self-service area (with hydraulic lifts) with a qualified tech to mentor you through the process.

I have become distrusting of this shop since I had paid them to find an intermittent stall problem which they did not find and charged me $65. They even laughed at me saying "there's nothing wrong with your bike...maybe something is wrong with you...haha" -- I didn't find it funny though. A couple months later I found the lose ignition coil wire half dangling from the post.

I will find out whether the old gasket was in there along with the new filter we installed together at the shop. I have come to distrust technicians in general and want to learn how to do all of my own servicing, or at least most routine maintenance tasks.

Thanks for taking the time, OldWingGuy!

Curiously I just discovered an oil drip from the same approximate location earlier today. No visible loss of oil on the dipstick, but a small accumulation on the driveway after a few minutes idling. Tomorrow I plan on removing the floor skirt(s) to identify the source of the drip. IIRC the filter is only a few months old. Meanwhile I picked up a Purolator L14612 filter to temporarily replace the existing one.

Thankfully the weather tomorrow will be unseasonably warm and allow me to "assume the position" on the driveway to do this.

Tim

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:

Curiously I just discovered an oil drip from the same approximate location earlier today. No visible loss of oil on the dipstick, but a small accumulation on the driveway after a few minutes idling. Tomorrow I plan on removing the floor skirt(s) to identify the source of the drip. IIRC the filter is only a few months old. Meanwhile I picked up a Purolator L14612 filter to temporarily replace the existing one.

Thankfully the weather tomorrow will be unseasonably warm and allow me to "assume the position" on the driveway to do this.

Tim

Thank you so much, Tim. Learning of this type of oil leak problem makes me realize that stuff like this can happen and being vigilant of all systems is part of the deal. Unlike a car that theoretically can ride along seemingly forever, a scooter/bike is different and needs continual attention, but is so much more fun than any car.

I love this forum! I have learned so much from you and many of the other guys!

Steve

I had this problem with a WIX 51635 filter. Investigation revealed that the thread boss at the center of the filter was raised (protruded from the base plate) sufficiently to prevent the gasket from sealing.

This is the Motorcraft filter I use on my Tacoma, the protrusion on the WIX filter was a bit more pronounced:


The problem is that the hex "head" of the mounting bolt/filter adapter for the S'Wing oil cooler also protrudes a bit higher than the seating surface for the filter's gasket:


Combine the two and the filter gasket will not seat fully, and leak regardless of how tight you try to screw on the filter.

I do not have a photo of the business end of the Purolator L14612 I used to replace the WIX, however this is a photo of a dissected Purolator L16420 from my '90 Miata--it's the backside of the base plate but you can see that the business end of the base plate is concave relative to the gasket mounting rail:


Filters to be used on the Silver Wing must have this "concave" base plate in order to properly compress the gasket...

I don,'t know what filters you fit in USA but in UK I fit HI FLO filters for oil and Air. Usually if you remember to run a bit of oil on the new filter seal no problem, it depends on how long the filter has been on. In my case I do enough mileage to change filters at least every year, and have never had any problems.

I use Champion oil filters, they're easy to buy, easy to fit, they don't leak, don't corrode, and like the venerable Lancastrian says, lubricate the oil filter seal on the new filter before installing.

After seven years on here I still find it weird that blokes on here from the other side of the Pond perform post mortems and photograph on their obscure shagged out oil filters to prove a point.

Meldrew wrote:

I use Champion oil filters, they're easy to buy, easy to fit, they don't leak, don't corrode, and like the venerable Lancastrian says, lubricate the oil filter seal on the new filter before installing.

After seven years on here I still find it weird that blokes on here from the other side of the Pond perform post mortems and photograph on their obscure shagged out oil filters to prove a point.

MSME MIT '71 -- with an emphasis on failure analysis, i.e. I cannot help it...

It's not only the rubber gasket / seal that gets the oil on mine as I will fill the filter with new oil and let it be absorbed by the filter media before installing, how much difference does that make? I don't know but it just something I have done.

oldwingguy wrote:

It's not only the rubber gasket / seal that gets the oil on mine as I will fill the filter with new oil and let it be absorbed by the filter media before installing, how much difference does that make? I don't know but it just something I have done.

This is the same procedure I have always used. Oil the seal and put some oil in the filter prior to installing it. Not sure where I learned this but never any problems. I usually use either OEM or Fram XG6607 filters. So far so good.

Oil drip resolved. First I removed both side skirts and wiped the filter area clean. Then snugged up the filter approx 3/4 turn. I then put some newspaper under that area and started the engine. Normally I'd let it idle for ~5 minutes before riding, and it was during that interval that the oil spot recently appeared. However now after tightening the filter and a 1/2 hour idling time there was no sign of a drip and no telltale spots on the newspaper.

Evidentaly the oil filter wasn't tight enough. I always thought I conscientious when installing oil filters but it appears that this one wasn't tight enough --or had somehow become loose. An extra but gentle oomph with a proper filter wrench solved the problem.

I hope that your problem turns out to be as simple, Steve.

Tim

We don't learn from doing everything right every time ! The best teachers are the catastrophic failures. I had a flood of oil on my driveway right after changing the oil on one of my bikes. I quickly got a pan under there to catch what was left. Turns out the old gasket from the previously installed filter was stuck on the bike. I never checked the old oil filter.
Needless to say, I now check the old filter very time to see that the gasket comes off with it. And the first time I changed the oil on my 2007, soon after getting it home, I noted the that the mesh cone was installed the wrong way. Glad I caught it before anything drastic happened.
Jay.

There is an O ring at base of oil cooler. Rare but they can leak, I've seen it on Honda cars.
Double gasket is a very common mistake. Filter removed gasket sticks to engine don't feel bad.

cliffyk is correct about oil filters have been changed at the base. Purolator and some others are slightly different. FJR Forum is having the same leaks at gasket. Filter bottoms out before crushing gasket enough to seal.

Thank you everybody for sharing some really helpful tips. My OEM filter is on the way from Partzilla.com and will be sure to check oil cooler for perhaps an old O-ring that was not removed at the last change. I really appreciate everyone who comments because how else would I learn tips that help keep my Swing in good health!

For whatever reason, I have stopped receiving e-mail notifications in at my usual email address (sjchambers50@att.net). Checked notification and preferences and all seems well.

Cheers!
Steve

Steve, Considering you've already tightened that loose filter, why not try "the newspaper test", as I mentioned in my post yesterday, while you are waiting for your new filter to arrive?

O ring I mentioned is behind oil cooler between engine case and cooler. IT would not be an old filter gasket.

Skid plate under engine always traps a bit of oil and you think something is leaking but its not. I always clean it after oil change. Put it on side stand and use a little brake clean to remove oil.

Honda could've made it much easier with a standard type drain plug in the case.

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:

Steve, Considering you've already tightened that loose filter, why not try "the newspaper test", as I mentioned in my post yesterday, while you are waiting for your new filter to arrive?

Well, strange as this may seem, the oil filter is no longer leaking. I don't quite understand it. After tightening the oil filter earlier in the week, the drip continued. Like you, I had removed only the lower left side panel to have better access. Today, I find that there is no longer a drip even though I had only tightened it one time. Let me go out and check one more time... (9ne minute later: there is no leak anymore. A mystery. According to UPS from Partzilla.com, the oil and oil filter will arrive Dec. 4th. Yikes! I'm already almost 250 miles past due for the oil change.

Thank you, thank you!

Mech 1 twa wrote:

O ring I mentioned is behind oil cooler between engine case and cooler. IT would not be an old filter gasket.

Skid plate under engine always traps a bit of oil and you think something is leaking but its not. I always clean it after oil change. Put it on side stand and use a little brake clean to remove oil.

Honda could've made it much easier with a standard type drain plug in the case.

Thanks, Mech 1 twa! When I bought the scooter new off the lot with 3 miles on odometer, I naively had no idea that I'd end up being a mechanic. Today, though, I am glad that I am learning to do my own servicing because I simply don't trust most mechanics. So far, I have to say that I don't trust any mechanics.

A good friend of mine told me that I expect too much out of people and that my values are quite old-fashioned. Guess I've come of age and sound like my parents did when I was a young kid. Oh well...

Mech 1 twa wrote:

O ring I mentioned is behind oil cooler between engine case and cooler. IT would not be an old filter gasket.

Skid plate under engine always traps a bit of oil and you think something is leaking but its not. I always clean it after oil change. Put it on side stand and use a little brake clean to remove oil.

Honda could've made it much easier with a standard type drain plug in the case.

I took the skid plate off just about a year and 6500 miles ago as it was a PITA and I don't believe I'll ever be doing any serious "off-roading" with the Silver Wing...

That skid plate oil entrapment gave me a bit of a start the first time I saw oil under the bike the morning after an oil change

oldwingguy wrote:

That skid plate oil entrapment gave me a bit of a start the first time I saw oil under the bike the morning after an oil change  

Oh yeah!

First time I changed the oil the booby-trapped spring loaded tappet cap popped out and oil went everywhere all over the barn floor. Second time I anticipated it but it still got all up under the skid plate dripped all over and made a mess.

Third time, before I drained the oil, I made the skid plate go away.

My next project (should ambition meet desire) is to make a "tappet cover" but with a more robust center, and drill and tap that for a "normal" 12 or 14 mm drain plug...

The main fault with that tappet cover is that it covers a larger drain hole than the majority of maxi scooters fitted with a normal sized sump plug, so the oil drains out faster and in a greater volume. So if you haven't got a decent sized pan for the flow of oil to drain into and contain, you're bound to make a mess.

I've adapted to draining the oil and change the filter without slackening off or removing any Tupperware on the Silver Wing, the importance of using a socket that grips and won't round off the tappet, and using a decent oil filter wrench. Of course the pictorials here were very helpful the first time or two, and for reference having your own Factory Service Manual.

My only gripe about the tappet cover is I'd prefer it to be fitted with a magnet to pick up metallic dust,

I use an old roasting tin to catch draining oil, wide enough and deep enough to catch everything. I found the oil drain plug (old tappet cover) comes off perfectly with a 15/16 AF socket. What tupperware needs removing? it is straight forward to get at drain plug and oil filter.

Yes it is, but I remember the first time I did an oil change I'd read someones post about doing it a particular way which I did, and after that I found it unnecessary. That was the one time I used one of those plastic combined oil drain pan cum storage and disposal containers.

Unlike smaller capacity maxi scooters with about a litre of sump oil and a normal drain plug, I found that the 2 litres of used oil in the Silver Wing flows out of the sump faster than it drains into the hole of the oil container.

Luckily I'd used a high sided plastic tray to stand the oil container in to keep the garage floor clean. Which reminds me now I have containers of used oil, coolant, and brake fluid to take to the local recycling centre.

If one can locate older Honda tappet covers they are more sturdy. I'm GUESSING perhaps other make bikes using these covers / plugs MAY be built heavier and could be modified.

In addition to high quality socket on drain cover, I used leather gloves to grip filter, getting it off=works. Also if shop works on your bike, it pays to check their work when done.

If you have to check the mechanics work after he's done why take it to him in the first place, just do it your self. seems a bit daft to me.

vmaximus wrote:

If you have to check the mechanics work after he's done why take it to him in the first place, just do it your self. seems a bit daft to me.

It's why many including me do our own. There's a Honda auto dealer I'll never go back to, just one instance of having to drive a rod through an oil filter to get it off after they installed it.

For as little as half the cost of one-hour shop time you can purchase the complete Factory Repair (Service) Manual on eBay. Currently there is one listed for $44.95 w/free shipping.

Meldrew,
I use a magnet from an old computer disk drive attached to the oil filter. Not sure if it works, but I feel it couldn't hurt? Never lost a magnet yet. I place it on the bottom side of the filter.

I have had shops do the work on my bikes, like changing tyres, and one oil change. I found my VLX 600 overfilled by a full half quart from the dealership ; my 2005 SWing needed rear tyre, sustained a big scratch thru the clearcoat on the swing arm, a rear tyre change on my VLX and the rear drum was not adjusted and the rear brake almost got cooked.
Yes, that taught me to check the bike after it comes out of the shop. Do it asap so you can return to the shop if necessary.
Jay.

My vehicles have only extremely rarely, in 60+ years, been serviced or repaired by a dealer or independent shop. The few times they have been "tickled by another" I go through with a fine tooth comb afterwards. I have never had glass replaced that they didn't muck up something...

I was also considering drilling tappet and installing plug but it is concave and made out of very soft metal. I'm going to look for a better one one Ebay see what I find.

A magnet that's same size as spring at bottom should stay in place when compressed. ??? It needs to be a rare earth type though. Magnets loose attraction when heated, JUST what I read somewhere. Don't quote me on that.

Some really helpful ideas regarding oil change, and I thank you all -- a heavy magnet placed under oil filter makes good sense. I will try that since I have a couple of those hanging around.

Good news! I did make a mess on the driveway since this was my first oil and filter change on this Swing. A little Easy-Off (oven cleaner) and a heavy-duty scrub brush cleaned up all the driveway mess -- halfway through my mess-making, I spread out a plastic drop sheet.

The good news is that there is no longer any oil leaking from anywhere. I find it difficult to know exactly how much oil is in the engine since my first check showed at the 75% fill mark on the dipstick. Then after rechecking, found that it needed more oil. Next time, I will use a graduated container that shows the 1.9 liters that is needed to fill the engine case -- guessing by what the dipstick tells me, whether it is hot or cold is not easy. Finally, after letting it idle for a good while, I was satisfied that the dipstick reading was in fact accurate and everything was ready to go.

I went on a good long ride to Long Beach, California, to get away from the smoke and fires that are now happening in the greater Los Angeles area. I live in North Hollywood which is close to Sylmar, the 405 freeway, and other hot spots that are flaming. Strong winds keep fanning the flames making it impossible to extinguish or even control at all. My home is not at jeopardy, so rest assured that my Swing and home are not at threat though I definitely feel compassion for those losing their homes.

Thanks again to everyone for sharing their experiences and tips on oil changes and distrust of most, if not all, mechanic shops -- dealership or not!

Steve

PS I try not to be so long-winded in my email texts, but I can't seem to stop it.

Glad your ok, this is a terrible situation to be in for anyone.

Yes. Glad you are OK Steve. That's gotta suck living out there with all the threats of fires all the time. I've only seen videos of it and they look terrible.

On a different note. I like changing my own oil and filter. I can see what the oil looks like as it comes out and any mistakes are my own. However, I do double and triple check my work to make sure there's no mess ups. So far, So good.

Dale N. wrote:

Yes. Glad you are OK Steve. That's gotta suck living out there with all the threats of fires all the time. I've only seen videos of it and they look terrible.

On a different note. I like changing my own oil and filter. I can see what the oil looks like as it comes out and any mistakes are my own. However, I do double and triple check my work to make sure there's no mess ups. So far, So good.

Thank you, Dale. Much appreciated. When I arrived in Long Beach to have lunch at the Belmont Brewing Company, right on the ocean and Belmont Pier, I first check the oil filter for leaks. It was hot but quite dry on it and around it. What a relief!

On the fires: when I awoke in bed early on Tuesday morning, I could clearly smell smoke in the apartment. It wasn't from anything burning in my apartment but from the horrific fires. It is unnerving to ride home and see the hills surrounding the freeway alight with blowing orange flames. I've seen this before and will see it again in the future, I'm sure. Why anyone would want to build a home on a mountain/hillside among brush and plant growth is beyond me. I hope their fire insurance is astronomical, but it probably isn't.

If ever you make it to Southern California, do let me know and we can meet up for a ride to some places that mostly only locals know.

Steve

oldwingguy wrote:

Glad your ok, this is a terrible situation to be in for anyone.

Thanks, OldWingGuy. I know I can count on you for good advice as to how to fix and maintain my Swing!

Steve

Dale N. wrote:

Yes. Glad you are OK Steve. That's gotta suck living out there with all the threats of fires all the time. I've only seen videos of it and they look terrible.

On a different note. I like changing my own oil and filter. I can see what the oil looks like as it comes out and any mistakes are my own. However, I do double and triple check my work to make sure there's no mess ups. So far, So good.

Dale, I forgot to ask you this one queston: What do you think of the idea of placing a strong magnet at the bottom of the oil filter. I figure it can't hurt, but would like your thoughts on it.

Steve

I never thought about it. Never have done it but might give it a try just too see what it does. I suppose the theory is that it will hold any metal as it wears off the engine and hold it in the filter. I have had a couple of vehicles that had a magnet in the drain plug and could see some very fine metal "dust" on it when changing the oil.

The only problem with it is IF your going to see if it collects anything you will have to mark the filter location where the magnet is to see what has collected inside. FWIW any of my equipment engine or transmission with magnets haven't ever collected anything worth mentioning and if they had one wouldn't know until the next time they were inspected buy that time if anything bad was going on it has already happened, everything is after the fact. BUT a good strong magnet is reusable

Dale N. wrote:

I never thought about it. Never have done it but might give it a try just too see what it does. I suppose the theory is that it will hold any metal as it wears off the engine and hold it in the filter. I have had a couple of vehicles that had a magnet in the drain plug and could see some very fine metal "dust" on it when changing the oil.

In re-reading your post of earlier, I take it that some fine "dust" particulate is normal with each oil change. I had PM'd you regarding this very thing.

Steve

Not to further hijack this Oil Leak thread, but why not stick a magnet between the oil sump tappet and the bash plate? I've taken to remove the bash plate when I do an oil change --simply because of that annoying drip. I think that an ex-microwave donut magnet would fit within that tappet/sump guard space. Given that the tappet is alloy wouldn't that "encourage" more magnetic attraction into the oil sump?

Wait a minute now...

Aren't these things largely aluminum? A non-ferrous metal? Immune to the dynamics of magnetic filux capacitance?

Whatever small bits of steel which might be caught by the addition of an installed magnet as they pass through the filter and it's associated fittings, are far less significant than the small bits of aluminum that hopefully, as we would expect, get caught by the filter - which, although I can't prove its efficiency at this instant, are probably in the microns?

Hence, if we rely on the filter to provide filtration of small al-u-minium bits, wouldn't it stand to reason that the same would occur with the non-al-u-minium bits?

Jon

janitorj1 wrote:

Wait a minute now...

Aren't these things largely aluminum?  A non-ferrous metal?  Immune to the dynamics of magnetic filux capacitance?  

Whatever small bits of steel which might be caught by the addition of an installed  magnet as they pass through the filter and it's associated fittings, are far less significant than the small bits of aluminum that hopefully, as we would expect, get caught by the filter - which, although I can't prove its efficiency at this instant, are probably in the microns?  

Hence, if we rely on the filter to provide filtration of small al-u-minium bits, wouldn't it stand to reason that the same would occur with the non-al-u-minium bits?

Jon

Yes, I guess you are right about aluminum since a magnet will not attract aluminum -- I had to go out there and check...LOL It's kind of confusing to me, really. I am just so pleased that the oil leak problem is solved!

Thanks Jon!

The crankshaft, connecting rods and wrist pins, piston rings, balance shafts (and their ball bearings), balancer gears and sub-gears, cam shaft, cam drive/driven sprockets and chain, valves and valve lifters, oil pump drive/driven gears and chain, starter reduction and driven gears, and a number of other internal engine parts are made of steel.

However all that said placing a magnet on the oil filter, or for that matter using a magnetic drain plugs are mostly just eye wash--if just about any of the above mentioned components failed anything they might shed would likely take a bunch of other parts out long before a magnet on the filter or drain plug saved the day--that's why Honda's engineers didn't include same.

One the other hand they won't hurt anything either...

I used a magnetic sump plug on my Helix for years and found it more useful than just the mesh thimble alone On a scooter that had no oil filter and a sump capacity of less than a litre it more than served it's purpose as it always had a good coating of metal dust. Another bonus was the magnetic sump plug was made of a harder metal than the OE one with less chance of rounding off the edges, and with regular 2000 miles oil changes that was useful too.

I am unconvinced of the utility of a magnetic drain plug in an engine with a oil filter.

However, a magnet is the canary in the coalmine, and could alert you to destruction before you hear/see it, without the work of splitting open the filter can at every oil change.

On many aircraft engines there is a chip detector that bridges electrical contacts with ferrous metallic debris, setting off an alarm.

I think getting too worried about metal in the engine is borderline paranoid, being that it's a Honda with no reputation for engine failure.
Leave the finger strainer in place, and if there's no shavings or chips in it, keep riding!

Steve,
When checking the oil level, DO NOT screw in the dip stick. Just let it sit on the top of the hole, then remove and read the level on the dip stick.