Getting ready for new season: Performance and comfort mods

I tooled around the neighborhood this afternoon just to warm up the bike. It was about 40 degrees F. outside. Not too bad.

No WAY I'm going through another summer of bum torture, so I've decided to get a Day-Long saddle courtesy of my tax refund check.

Next up will be a new rear tire. The stock Hoop is badly feathered after 4000 miles. It's a joke. The front tire is in good shape. Since I figure a rear tire per year, and a front every 2 years, seems to be the standard I'm not worried about maximizing tire life. I'll go with a Michelin for the rear, and eventually for the front too. If I can double the tire life and get 8K so much the better, but I'm not counting on it.

The belt is slapping. A Kevlar belt is on the list.

While I'm in there, I want to do something about performance. I want quicker clutch lockup down low, and a bit lower RPMS at speed. HiT Clutch for the lockup and sliders for the top end? Different variator? If so, which one?

Opinions, please.

Later on will come a Leo Vince exhaust, better lighting, better fork springs, etc. Maybe next year.

Mickey,

The mods that I have done are as follows:

J. Costa variator
Dr Pulley Sliders 21 grams
Dr Pulley Sliders 28 grams
Power Commander
HyperPro Front springs
Givi & Clearview windshields
K&N Air Filter

The J. Costa is great and the 21 gram Dr Pulley Sliders give great performance but they do raise the rpm's at lower speeds quite a bit. The 28 gram Dr Pulley Sliders really seem to smooth the ride out and it did reduce my rpms' by about 400 rpm while at interstate speeds. I'm going to combine the 2 sliders and install 4-21 gram and 4-28 gram to experiment but I'm sure I'm going to go back to just the 28 gram sliders after I experiment with the combination of the 2.

The Power Commander gives a little bit of power but what it really does, IMO, is it really smooths the bike out and gives better mileage. It is hard to explain the smoothness but it seems to just make it "puur", and the SWing is smooth just as it is. It also seems to be a bit more responsive too. My mileage went up about 3-5 mpg depending on how I ride it. Just make sure you install the Euro Map and not the stock map.

The HyperPro front springs really give it more of a motorcycle feeling. It really improves the handling quite a bit and is well worth the money.

I like the Givi windshield better than the Clearview since my XL Clearview ( with the vent) really bent when I went at interstate speeds and higher. If I stayed at 65 mph or so it was ok..but barely..and the Givi is very sturdy.

The K&N air filter is good although I'm not sure if I really feel any more power with it. It seems a bit more responsive but it could just be me. I do like the fact that you don't have to buy air filters anymore though since you can just clean it and let it dry.

As for tires, my OEM were Hoops, and I changed them out with the Pirelli Diablo's twice now. I get about 10,000 miles on the rear and could get probably 13,000-15,000 on the front but I always change them out at the same time. I will say that the Diablo's are much better than the Hoops since they give a much better ride and really stick to the road better. What kind of Michellan's would you get for the SWing? I didn't know that they made them for the SWing.

Tell us what you do when you do it and look up in the "Pictorials" section for some of the things above since there may be one that will help you out. These are just my observations of the mods I did and others may have gotten different results so please read other posts as they come up. I have no knowledge at all about the clutch so I can't help you out, but I was thinking of doing something one day with it.

There are three brands of aftermarket variator.
1. Polini(sp?) which is most like stock
2. Malossi, which is a little better.
3. J. Costa

You will be hard-pressed to find anyone that has chosen the Malossi when the J. Costa was available.
I put on the Malossi before the J.Costa was available.
After I put on the Costa, I never went back.
I doubt you will find one person on this board or .org with a Malossi or Polini Variator.
I speak as a four year veteran of Silverwing Forums and dare I say a bit of an expert in aftermarket parts for the Silverwing:
Costa is the variator of choice without exception.
MattC at www.scootertrap.com is a longtime friend to Silverwingers in the states.
He carries all your upgrade needs at very good prices and with great service.
He is also very responsive to email inquiries via the contact info on his site.
Can't recommend him and his organization highly enough.

Dan

Hey Jeff:
Hope everything is going well for you. I noticed your post above and had to ask if you really getting 10,000 miles out of the Pirelli Diablos? That sounds pretty good. Like you my original tires were Hoops. I had a blow out right at 8,000 miles on the rear tire of the original tires, and I replaced the rear with another Hoop. Now I am coming up on 6,000 miles on the rear tire and I can see that it is starting to show wear along the center, so I am looking at replacing both the front and rear with my next oil change. I have even considered trying out a dark side tire on the rear, but I just don't know about that. How expensive are the Diablos?

Thanks for your input.

Oh and Mickey:
Jeff and Dan both have made really good suggestions for performance improvements. I have added the KN air filter, the J Costa, the Leo Vince exhaust, Hyperpro springs, and drilled the air box. The improvement is very significant. The next thing for me is adding the Power Commander. Good luck to you.

+1 w/ drilled out airbox and great info Jeff.

If I read Jeff's post correctly I'll get slightly lower RPMS if I go with 28 gram sliders. That's actually what I'm looking for on the highway. Cheap, too. I'll try sliders and a kevlar belt for now, if I can find somebody that has them in stock. Scootertrap says they don't even stock the belt anymore, and they're out of the sliders.

I found a different belt on some European site, but they want $250 for the thing. God's on drive belt isn't worth that much money.

How about different springs for the stock clutch? I'm guessing some "lighter" springs would make it grab a little quicker. Malossi makes a set of assorted springs, I believe. That's also a cheap mod, so I'll give that a shot while I'm at it.

Ideally I'll get a little quicker lockup, and a little lower cruising RPMs at high speed. I'm not looking for more "performance." More of a reduction in slush and slightly better fuel economy, if possible.

Mickey,

I experienced about 400 fewer rpm's with the 28 gram sliders. I'm surprised they don't carry the belt anymore since I just got mine about a month ago. But if you want lower rpm's on the highway it seems the Dr Pulley sliders is the way to go. When I did mine I used a dry lube and sprayed it on the ramps and let it dry. I did that about 4 times. To get the dry lube to dry really quick after you spray the ramps, just blow on it and it and you can see it dry and then turn to a dust.

Mikey

There is nothing wrong with Honda's SWing belt. I believe that it does have kevlar in it.

The belt does have direction arrows on it. And even though there is no information about the belt orientation in the shop manual, you'll get belt slap if the belt is put on with the arrows pointing contrary to direction of rotation.

Hope this helps

Tim

I experienced the same results with the 28 gram Dr. Pulley sliders as did Jeff resulting in an RPM Reduction of 400 RPM's at highway speeds. Very nice when you have to ride on the interstate or a four lane highway. If you choose to use a spring upgrade on your stock clutch, You'll be using a spring that is stronger than stock. A lighter or softer spring would cause the bike to engage at such a low rpm where the engine does not pull very well. It would be like trying to start out in 2nd gear instead of 1st in your car. It would go, but be very sluggish until the RPM's increased to where the engine would be in its sweet spot where it pulls well. The spring kit that malossi sells comes with three sets of springs with each set being stronger/stiffer than stock and will help the clutch to engage at a higher RPM which will help by causing the clutch to engage when the engine is in its sweet spot more or less.

Hey Ron

IIRC You're using 28 gm Dr Pulley Sliders. Did you also experience the 'V' light coming on at 65 mph after you installed the sliders?

Did the 'V' light problem go away after you installed the Malossi clutch springs?

Tim
'03 Silverwing, Cosmic Jumper
Philadelphia --buried under 28 inches of snow Saturday

I have the 21 gram Dr Sliders and have not yet experienced the "V" light, as far as I can remember. I am going to mix the sliders this week but I wouldn't be surprised if I put all 28 gram sliders in, after I try out the mix of sliders. I really liked the smoothness of the 28gram sliders and it seemed less "buzzy". But the 21 gram sliders really give it the feel, power wise, of the J Costa.

Hey Ron

IIRC You're using 28 gm Dr Pulley Sliders. Did you also experience the 'V' light coming on at 65 mph after you installed the sliders?


Hi Tim, not initially. I did have a problem later on where the V-Light came on due to clutch dust getting built up between the ramp plate and the sliders. The clutch dust was causing the sliders not to ride up properly. I took apart and cleaned and haven't had a problem with the V-light since.

Did the 'V' light problem go away after you installed the Malossi clutch springs?


I've installed the springs into my new clutch but I've yet to install the clutch as I'm waiting for it to get a bit warmer. We've been anywhere from the single digits to the 40's and haven't had any days decent enough to take the bike apart so I don't know yet how this might impact the V-matic indicator. Enjoy all that snow!!!

Tim
'03 Silverwing, Cosmic Jumper
Philadelphia --buried under 28 inches of snow Saturday

ronjr009 wrote:

I experienced the same results with the 28 gram Dr. Pulley sliders as did Jeff resulting in an RPM Reduction of 400 RPM's at highway speeds. Very nice when you have to ride on the interstate or a four lane highway. If you choose to use a spring upgrade on your stock clutch, You'll be using a spring that is stronger than stock. A lighter or softer spring would cause the bike to engage at such a low rpm where the engine does not pull very well. It would be like trying to start out in 2nd gear instead of 1st in your car. It would go, but be very sluggish until the RPM's increased to where the engine would be in its sweet spot where it pulls well. The spring kit that malossi sells comes with three sets of springs with each set being stronger/stiffer than stock and will help the clutch to engage at a higher RPM which will help by causing the clutch to engage when the engine is in its sweet spot more or less.

I think I get it now.

Heavier rollers/sliders will give me lower cruising rpms.

Stiffer clutch springs will give me a bit "meaner" jump from a standing stop.

The HiT clutch will also let me custom tailor the "slippage" of the clutch. I'll be able to adjust the takeoff RPM as well as the tendency of the clutch to fully engage and "lock up."

So....If my goal is more oomph off the line and lower cruising revs I want a HiT clutch or a Malossi and a set of sliders.

Got it.

Now if I can just find somebody who sells a Kevlar belt. I've got an email in to the Martin Racing guys, who CLAIM to be the distributor for Dr. Pulley, but as expected they aren't replying. Their web site does not inspire confidence.

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:

Mikey

There is nothing wrong with Honda's SWing belt. I believe that it does have kevlar in it.

The belt does have direction arrows on it. And even though there is no information about the belt orientation in the shop manual, you'll get belt slap if the belt is put on with the arrows pointing contrary to direction of rotation.

Hope this helps

Tim

Mine slaps, and that complaint seems to be almost universal after a few thousand miles. I can't imagine Honda put them all in backwards.

It occurs to me that "belt slap" really shouldn't have anything to do with the belt itself. Kevlar makes it last longer, but it's not like a non-Kevlar belt would stretch like a rubber band. Belt slap is probably caused by a tendency by the CVT transmission not to take up slack properly. Probably gummed up with dust, grease and gunk.

That's what my "slightly better than clueless" logic is telling me, anyway. I need to take another look at diagrams of the drive system. You've got the clutch up front and the variator in the rear, but what uses up the extra slack as the variator does its thing? Is there a third pulley with a spring? That would be the "belt slap" culprit, I'd imagine.

Mikey take another look at that YouTube video you posted. You can see the belt flapping away while the Variator & Driven Pulleys are 'changing' gears.

I posted this in another thread:

I thought all belts had Kevlar in them - the aftermarket ones are advertised as 'Kevlar belts' in order to sell them.
From experience - the Piaggio belts last much longer than the am ones (as do the Honda ones in the X9250sl maxis) and show signs of wear, unlike the am ones which usually fail with little or no warning.

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:

Mikey take another look at that YouTube video you posted. You can see the belt flapping away while the Variator & Driven Pulleys are 'changing' gears.

Yep. I noticed that. And that's what convinced me that there is no magic solution to belt slap except to keep everything clean and sliding freely. I can't imagine why kevlar would have anything to do with the amount of slack in the belt.

I suspect the reason people are reporting "no more belt slap" with the Kevlars is they clean everything up when they change the belt. That's what solves the problem.

I'll find out soon enough, because with only 4K on my machine I don't think I'll change the belt right away. I'll just make the mechanical changes I want and spiff everything up.

MikeO wrote:

I posted this in another thread:

I thought all belts had Kevlar in them - the aftermarket ones are advertised as 'Kevlar belts' in order to sell them.
From experience - the Piaggio belts last much longer than the am ones (as do the Honda ones in the X9250sl maxis) and show signs of wear, unlike the am ones which usually fail with little or no warning.

Ran into a similar issue with VW TDI cam drive belts. They also have to drive the high-pressure diesel pump, which puts a huge amount of stress on the belt. OEM belts were lasting 40K, tops. Gates came out with an 80K "kevlar" belt. Our assumption was that the OEM belt didn't have kevlar reinforcement, but we don't actually KNOW that for a fact. The Gates belt might just be a better product, that's all.

If a Gates is available for the Swing I'll buy one. They are the best of the best. You just have to know the dimensions of the belt and see if they have one in their catalog. Honda probably just picked one "off the shelf" when they designed the bike.

mickey wrote:

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:

Mikey

There is nothing wrong with Honda's SWing belt. I believe that it does have kevlar in it.

The belt does have direction arrows on it. And even though there is no information about the belt orientation in the shop manual, you'll get belt slap if the belt is put on with the arrows pointing contrary to direction of rotation.

Hope this helps

Tim

Mine slaps, and that complaint seems to be almost universal after a few thousand miles. I can't imagine Honda put them all in backwards.

It occurs to me that "belt slap" really shouldn't have anything to do with the belt itself. Kevlar makes it last longer, but it's not like a non-Kevlar belt would stretch like a rubber band. Belt slap is probably caused by a tendency by the CVT transmission not to take up slack properly. Probably gummed up with dust, grease and gunk.

That's what my "slightly better than clueless" logic is telling me, anyway. I need to take another look at diagrams of the drive system. You've got the clutch up front and the variator in the rear, but what uses up the extra slack as the variator does its thing? Is there a third pulley with a spring? That would be the "belt slap" culprit, I'd imagine.

An idea came to me that I don't think I have seen asked/answered anywhere else - if you were to install a stronger contra spring (the big one on the clutch) AND heavier weights, would it keep additional tension on the belt and stop the belt slap?

Anyone try it before?

Philip

I would imagine so, but you want to be careful getting them too far away from the stock settings.

I've never thought of that before. All the belt-slap discussion centers around which belt to use, but changing the tension isn't discussed in that context. More tension would raise the frequency of the oscillation, like tightening a guitar string. The amplitude should decrease, though, so the belt will be less apt to strike the plastic cover. That's my guess, anyway.

OK.....

Stronger "big spring" wants to keep the driven pulley squeezed together, and resists changing to higher gear. It counteracts the effects of heavier rollers. The stock rollers are already as heavy as you'll find. So you'll have a slower runup through the "gears." Kind of like having lighter rollers. As you decelerate the driven pulley will tend to go back into "low gear" more quickly.....

Oh, hell. I give up. Try it and let us know.

I think it would act the same as putting lighter rollers in the variator.

It seems that the belt is always under tension from the variable centrifugal force from the rollers in the variator (trying to press the variator together) being resisted by a static pressure from the contra spring in the clutch. By putting lighter rollers in, the contra spring in the rear becomes comparatively stronger, keeping the driven pulley pressed together, giving it a lower gear ratio. Usually, we put in lighter variator weights to allow the contra spring (I think that is what the big spring in the clutch is called) to keep the driven pulley pressed together - its just a lot easier to change variator weights than a clutch spring.

I would guess that, if you put a softer contra spring in the rear and lighter variator weights in the front, the machine would act the same as a stock machine, with the exception of a lot of slop in the belt. That is why I think that heavier weights and contra spring might get rid of belt slap. When I rode a mountain bike and we would get chain slap, we just took out a couple of links. A shorter chain was under more tension and didn't slap.

I don't really know! I'm just a theoretical guy. Besides, I already put in a J Costa and it got rid of most of the slap.

Philip

Belt Slap?? What is that?? (grinning) I don't have any since I installed the J Costa...