Stalling at stops after engine warm

First I want to say thanks to everyone on this site. I bought a 2002 SW about 3 months ago and I absolutely love it. The comments I got from everyone gave me the courage to jump from a 150cc to this beast. It's great to get on the highway and go as fast as I need to. This thing doesn't even break a sweat.

I've been having a small problem lately, however. It's been stalling at low speeds, especially when coming to or parked at a stop. It has about 7000 miles now and runs great at higher speeds. The plugs look OK. It's not over-heating.

I couldn't find many others with this issue here so I looked around elsewhere and found this comment:

It could be a "plugged pilot jet. This jet is responsible for fuel delivery in the idle speeds. since your bike has an automatic choke. when it is not at operating temp, this auto choke actually opens an auxiliary orifice giving fuel to the bike as it warms up. as it warms up, this valve closes and the motor must continue to run off of that pilot jet. but this jet being plugged, it will lose idle when warm. to fix this the carb will need to be removed, and the pilot jet cleaned out."

This sounds like a good answer. However, I am not even sure where the carb is. I have the manual for 2002 and later, but no mention of a carb. I'd like to fix this myself if I can.

Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Bill

bigbird,

Thanks so much for taking the time to answer. Your assessment of my mechanical skill level is accurate. However, I am very motivated to learn because I want to keep this bike a long time. Give me a couple of days to answer your questions.

Listen to bigbird, he will help you. Also, when you say it "stalls", do you mean it starts to accelerate and then doesn't go or do you mean it dies while sitting at a standstill? It's important to make sure both of you understand the problem. Your defination of stalling may be different from others. I hope you get it sorted and have many happy miles of riding in the Sunshine State.

Does it stalls when its on the center stand ?

Hi lndlyb4,

If your scooter is running good at higher RPM's and only stalls when it is warm at idle, I would suggest you adjust the idle up to the correct RPM after she warms. The correct idle RPM is 1300 +/- 100 Let the scooter warn till the fan comes on before you make this adjustment.

Give this a try first before you start throwing money at it.

You Guys are awesome for offering help. I'm flat on my back with bronchitis now so I will need a couple of days to answer questions.

Off the top of my head now:

To "Hi Yo",

Quote :

"do you mean it starts to accelerate and then doesn't go or do you mean it dies while sitting at a standstill?"

It stalls when I slow down or stop at a light, never when accelerating - when I'm running less than 5-10 mph. It does this after the engine is warmed up. For now, to avoid the stall when stopped, I hold the left brake and give it a little gas. Runs great when accelerating and at medium and higher speeds

To tinman,

Quote :

"Does it stalls when its on the center stand ?"

Not sure, will try to test today.

To DennisB

Quote :

"adjust the idle up"

I should have mentioned that I did this. I put the bike up on the stand and followed the (corrected) pictorial on this site (thanks JeffR). It made a big difference and I thought I had the problem fixed. The stalling stopped for about a day. I did notice that, while it was on the stand, the idle RPM would fluctuate between 1500 and 1000. However, I think I did not let the engine warm up too much first. I notice the idle is back around 1000 now that it is stalling. I will try this again today.


To bigbird;

Thanks again for your offer to help. I would rather buy whatever gadgets/tools I need and learn how to do it myself as much as possible before throwing my money at mechanics. Can you tell me what kind of voltmeter to get?

I was careful not to mess with the synchronization screws. JeffR's instructions were pretty clear.

The FI warning light is not lit.

I think the rpms are back down around 1000. I am going to put it back on the stand today and adjust after it is warm.

I will need a little time to answer other questions.

bigbird,

Quote :

"it's just the flux capacitor shorting out to the auxiliary photon sensor in the
Zener diode"

I wish it was that simple. (That only happens on my Delorean when I time travel.)

Plugs -- I'd change them out regardless of how they look. I've pulled plugs before on poor performing bikes, and they ran smoother after a change even though they looked OK. And at 7k miles I think you were due anyway.

And this may sound minor, but if your bike is carbureted you can add some Seafoam, about 1 oz per gallon. I helps dissolve some of the gum and varnish that can build up in carbureted systems. You may find it helpful, a lot of folks swear by it, and it certainly can't hurt. Just don't use too much, I've found that high doses can sometimes coat the plugs enough to cause problems. But it may take a tankful or two run through before you notice a difference.

Vic

viclavigne,

I will do as you suggest. I should have changed them as soon as I bought the bike.

thanks

I will also add that you should check your air cleaner. At 7k miles the manual doesn't call for it, but if you or someone else had been driving in dusty locations the filter could be a bit clogged.

Vic

bigbird & all,

Ok, this is my plan once I get back on my feet.

1. Change plugs.
2, Inspect air filter. Change if necessary.
3. Check the throttle synchronization.
4. Clean fuel injectors.

Question: How does one go about cleaning the fuel injectors? I have seen Sea Foam mentioned a few times. Will that do the trick or should I take it apart and do it myself. My mechanic says I should have the dealer do it.

thanks

bigbird,

My cold idle is around 1300. After I drive it and it warms up, the idle goes down to -1000 and eventually stalls. When cold, it starts right up. When hot, I have to give it gas to start it and keep it started or it will stall.

My battery is fully charged. I have two and swapped them out. Same problem. There doesn't seem to be a drain on the battery and the charge system seems to be working as the starter is always strong and lights are not diminished.

After reading the tips on page 23-3 in the manual, I am leaning toward "Starter Valve synchronization misadjusted" or one of the other items on page 5-3 under "Engine stall, hard to start, rough idling". Perhaps also "Faulty Pressure Regulator" on page 53-3.

It seems as if I go about this one step at a time, we will be able to narrow down the problem and I will have gotten quite an education and perhaps saved some money.

As a last resort, I will just have to make the trip to Winnipeg.

Before I would do anything,I would adjust the idle screw t0 1300 rpm and throttle cable to 1/8" to 1/4" play . my 09 Swing with 2800 kl when i got it had wait to much free play I adjusted mine at the throttle assembly.I cut a open end wrench to fit to loosen the jam nut to make the adjustment . It was a ease fix for me. It could be your problem to.

Just to make sure I understand:

The cold idle and hot idle are adjusted with the same screw, right? The only difference is that I wait until the cooling system is at 3 bars before adjusting the idle screw. I'm not supposed to touch the other two screws for air and mixture.

If you want to run Seafoam, just add 1 oz in the tank per gallon of fuel. There is a trick for running seafoam in via a vacuum line and letting it flood.... I've never done this and wouldn't recommend it. I don't consider seafoam a "bandaid", if it smooths out the engine then the fuel system were a bit gummed up. If the fuel system is not gummed up you will not notice any difference after running it. Its true that modern fuels are pretty good.... but your bike is a 2002 model, so it has 10 years of history on its engine. I think a low mileage engine is even more prone to fuel problems since that would indicate lots of time for gasoline deposits to build up.

I would go through the maintenance schedule and make sure everything is caught up. That includes adjusting idle speed, but I wouldn't adjust idle speed until everything else is checked, cleaned/replaced as needed.

There is only one idle screw. Just adjust idle speed after the engine is warmed up as bigbird described.

Vic

Its normal for a cold engine to run run at 1500.rpm,and when the temp rise it will drop to 1300 to1350 rpm that is normal.There is one screw a throttle stop.Adjust that to 1300 rpm the the free play on the throttle grip is 1/8" to 1/4".If the cable is to loose the cable can fall of the tumbler jamming the throttle .Very dangerous for acceleration lockout of control.

Vic, bigbird,

As you re-read through this topic, you will notice that I'm the one that suggested the OP should ajust his idle speed screw when he gets his scooter warmed up.

Please keep things in order and correct.

Thanks Vic,

I just put the SW back up on the stand and warmed it up to 3 bars. The rpms were around 1300-1400. The longer I left it on, the more the rpms started to slip, so I turned it up a bit more. After a while, the engine started to run a bit rough. By "rough" I mean the engine did not sound even and the rpms fluctuated from 1100 to 1400. It did not stall on the stand.

I took it off the stand and rode it for about ten minutes. For the first couple of stops, it did not stall. However, after 10 minutes out, the rpms dropped to around 1000 when coming to a stop so I gave it gas to keep it from stalling. Finally, at my last stop, I didn't give it gas and it stalled.

My next steps are to change the plugs, check the air filter and the "throttle cable free play" that Tinman suggested. I'm hoping I can figure out how to do it from the manual and Tinman's comments. I might as well try the Sea Foam too as it seems several have said it helped them. Doesn't sound like it could hurt.

Any other suggestions are welcome.

I may have over-filled the coolant in the reservoir. Could that affect anything?

bigbird,

I assumed that they meant "throttle valve" instead of "starter Valve" on page 23-3 in the manual. I'm just guessing though.

OK, now I can't even get it to stay running. I probably played with the idle too much. I'll try again tomorrow.

tinman,

I adjusted the throttle free-play this morning. Thanks for the tip. I can add that to my repertoire now. Didn't correct the idle problem, but now I've learned one more thing about my bike. Here's a video tutorial I found for other amateurs like myself who want to learn how to do this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxglqX40-84

I had knocked off the little tube that goes right over the idle screw last night, that's why it wouldn't start at all.

This morning I put it on the stand and fired it up. At first, it was runniing smoothly. Again, after warming to 3 bars, I set idle to 1300. Seemed to run smooth/ No stall on stand. Took it out on the road. Everything OK at first few stops. No stall. Then, after 5-10 minutes, the rpms dropped down around 1000 and below when at stop light until it stalled. I pulled over and adjusted the idle screw a little to get the rpms back up to 1300, but it was very difficult to start and was running rough again. Stalled when pulling into driveway. I'm going to go out and check my air cleaner now

With only 7000k on the clock for 02 Swing ,You could have varnish clogging I thing up. I don't know what sea foam is but injector cleaner ore deisel fuel condishener might clean out any gunk inside where the jets are .The old timers would put auto tranny oil 2 ounce with the gas to clean the cargs .Try injector cleaner it cant hurt before taking thing apart .I use it regularly,every 4 tanks of gas.

lndlyb4

Sent you a PM. If it works, post it. If not, just ignore.

Vic

bigbird'

I ordered a carburetor tuner from the Honda dealer. Will be in Tuesday. Will post results. Hope this is a good one.
[url= http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/1/4/65/13078/ITEM/Motion-Pro-Syncpro-Carburetor-Tuner.aspx] http://www.motorcycle-superstore.com/1/4/65/13078/ITEM/Motion-Pro-Syncpro-Carburetor-Tuner.aspx[/url]

One step at a time. We'll get there through process of elimination.

I also picked up some spark plugs.

These are all things I need to know how to do, so none of it is a waste of time or money.

I do appreciate this forum and everybody's help.

p.s., What is the best way to locate other SW owners in the fort lauderdale area?

lndlyb4 wrote:

p.s., What is the best way to locate other SW owners in the fort lauderdale area?

Please add yourselves (or post to be added) to the Silverwing600 Google Map https://www.silverwing600.com/t3322-silverwing600-google-map#30262

honda_silver wrote:

lndlyb4 wrote:

p.s., What is the best way to locate other SW owners in the fort lauderdale area?

Please add yourselves (or post to be added) to the Silverwing600 Google Map https://www.silverwing600.com/t3322-silverwing600-google-map#30262

You know im the one that brought the idea of the rescue map to this forum. Just keeping thing in the correct order.

Tagg wrote:

You know im the one that brought the idea of the rescue map to this forum.

You suggested a rescue list ( https://www.silverwing600.com/t3286-rescue-list-discussion ).

bigbird wrote:

List, map, does it really matter?
It was done sarcastically.

You missed my sarcasm.

I picked up the SyncPro yesterday and completed the air screw synchronization this morning. Unfortunately, the bike continues to stall. I'm hoping someone can see something I missed or point me in the right direction. I appreciate all the help so far.

Here are the steps I took and the results.

1. I warmed up the bike.
2. Attached the synchronizer tubes as shown in the picture.
3. Set left and right air screws to 1.75 turns counter-clockwise as a starting point.
4. With the engine running and the synchronizer tubes attached, the reading on the synchronizer for the left one was a little lower than the right one so I turned the air screw so that the readings on the synchronizer were even.
5. I then adjusted the main air screw so that the idle was right at 1.3.
6. The engine was running very smoothly at that point.
7. I removed the synchronizer tubes and re-attached the original throttle tubes. When I did, the idle immediately jumped to around 1.6 and remained there. (I noticed when disconnecting the sync tubes, gas came out of one of the tubes. See photo.)
8. I adjusted the idle back down to 1.3.
9. At this point, the engine started running rough (about 10 -15 minutes into the process) and the idle dropped down to around 1.0.
10. I then re-attached the tubes from the synchronizer and the idle immediately went back to 1.5 - 1.6. After a short time, it dropped back down to around 1.0 and started running very rough. I shut off the engine.
11. After about an hour, I tried to start the bike and it would not start at all. I could not even get it to rev at all.
12. I removed the spark plugs (brand new) and they were black and there seemed to be either gas or oil around the base of the threads of the plug. I’m pretty sure it was oil.
13. I sprayed the plugs with a grease cleaner and wiped them down and put them back in. I was then able to get the bike to start.
14. I drove the bike to work and it ran very rough at low speeds, but just fine at higher speeds (40mph +). I had to keep the throttle open with my left hand on the brake to avoid stalling at stops.
15. It starts very hard, but it does start.

I used this presentation as my guide.

https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1hNJI_CQzNa5s4q0zFA9Y_jXafXIG2uvmWrgQUgoHhXc/edit#slide=id.gdc20eac_0_48

This is a link to the carb tuner

http://www.bikebandit.com/motion-pro-syncpro-carb-tuner

I attached a couple of pictures in my album.
https://www.silverwing600.com/gallery/Personal-album-of-lndlyb4/Before-Synchronizer-Tubes-Attached-pic_1296.htm
https://www.silverwing600.com/gallery/Personal-album-of-lndlyb4/After-Synchronizer-Tubes-attached-pic_1295.htm

I'm open to all suggestions. I'm guessing that the fouled plugs may be a clue.

Bill

Thanks for the encouragement.

There is enormous satisfaction and a feeling of independence in being able to fix something yourself. It's almost as heady as the feeling of freedom you get from being on two wheels instead of four. It may sound silly, but I love this bike so much that it is almost a privilege to work on it. It's my first "motorcycle". I have been riding a Chinese 150cc that finally died. Compared to that thing, the SW is a monster. I'd like to keep this bike a long time. It's my primary mode of transportation. (Is there a 12-step program for people who love their bikes too much? )

I'm confident that, once we get to the bottom of this, I will have developed a lot of new skills that will make it much easier the next time and will save me A LOT of money.

You know that old saying "Give a man a fish..."?

To all who have helped, thanks for teaching me to fish.

Ordered the Pressure Regulator and o ring. In Wed next week. Can't wait.

OK. Got the parts.

Is it really necessary to take all the steps in the manual, or can I just take off the old pressure regulator and put on the new one? It seems like it's right there in plain sight. Why remove all that other stuff?

On page 5-60 it says "Remove the intake manifold". Is that really necessary?

On page 5-102 of my shop manual,the fist thing said is remove intake manifold on page 5-92. It might be to make sure that there is nothing inside that could block the injectors. There must be a reason for this . Its your call.

I want to do the right thing, but to remove the intake manifold, my manual says to drain coolant, remove air cleaner housing, loosen throttle cables, disconnect throttle cables from drum, disconnect ect sensor connector, remove throttle body from insulator, remove throttle body, and more. I just want to make sure this is all necessary.

Can I damage anything by just swapping out the pressure regulator? I'm not much of a mechanic and I don't want to screw this up.

I called the service department at the dealer and he wasn't sure, but said they try to go by the manual. He said there is usually a reason they put the extra steps in. Oh well, looks like plenty to do on my day off tomorrow. Better safe then sorry.

OK bigbird, this sounds like a fairly quick job that way. I think I'll give it a try this afternoon. Do I need to lubricate the new o ring before putting it on?

Going to do it now. thanks

I had this problem a couple thousand miles ...& 2 years ago!...
switched to Iridium plugs,but didn't fix it...neither did regular fuel injector cleaner....
Sea Foam did it for me!
haven't has a problem since!!!
try putting in a few ounces in and fill with gas run it empty...do it again ...and one more time till the seafoam can is empty! That's all it took,and has never stalled again!
good luck!

I don't think any amount of SeaFoam could cure fuel leaking from the pressure regulator, through a vacuum tube, and into the intake manifold.[/quote]

I don't either! Sorry didnt quite read the whole thread...Just meant to imply that I went through a stalling problem with this bike,and seafoam fixed it... Had the exact symptoms that he described...Once we were headed to MO. and the damm thing kept crapping out in Chicago in rush hour! I never forget that trip! lol

1. Changed the pressure regulator.
2. Re-did the throttle synchronization
3. Re-adjusted idle speed.

SW is now purring like a kitten. Stays steady at 1.3 rpms.

Thanks to everyone for the help, especially bigbird.

I'll follow with details on how to change the pressure regulator for other neophytes like myself.

I can't tell you how good this feels to have fixed myself.

This is a great forum.

forgitaboutut,

Thanks for the tip. Others have mentioned the effectiveness of Seafoam as well. I replaced the PR because I had a lot of extra gas on the plugs and excess gas coming out of one of the tubes.

In any case, I'm a little bit more nifty with a wrench now and know how to do a throttle sync.

lndlyb4 wrote:

I can't tell you how good this feels to have fixed myself.

Well done

I'm looking forward to reading the details.

bigbird wrote:

lndlyb4 wrote:

Thanks to everyone for the help, especially bigbird.

My pleasure.
PM sent.

HEY, what about me. I'm Terry's "Yoda".

lndlyb4 wrote:

1. Changed the pressure regulator.
2. Re-did the throttle synchronization
3. Re-adjusted idle speed.

SW is now purring like a kitten. Stays steady at 1.3 rpms.

Going to start a "Maintenance: Fuel" Poll for items replaced.

When done could you please go in and click on the "Pressure regulator"

Is it common for the fuel pressure regulator to fail ?
Just wondering what I have to look forward after I add up some miles
and time .

Bill, All I have to say is: to you and all those who helped you. This is how this forum should work. Good job all.

Thanks Big Bird
Living in Maryland with our mild winters , I don't have to shut the wing down
for an extended period of time . With my previous Bikes , I always made a point to start them up every couple of days and let them run awhile to keep the battery charged and the fuel flowing