bearing in the final drive assembley

at 34,0000 miles i began to hear a scraping sound like metal to Metal when the Silver Wing was on it's stand. no side to side slop just a light scraping when the wheel was rolled in the direction of travel and in reverse. the difficulty was that i had just rolled into Amerivespa in Geneva Lakes Wisconsin 400 miles from home. unfortunately my riding buddy had a massive and fatal heart attack at the same time.
when your in the stew you can only do one thing at a time.
I got a ride in a car to my home and returned to Geneva Lakes to trailer home my Silver Wing. Midwest Scooter Works in lake Geneva Had inspected the wheel bearing and they where good on the swing arm side. I took it home to Dayton Ohio and had my shop disassemble the final drive and the found the final drive bearing had failed. Its a Honda and i have really enjoyed riding but i was thinking this seems early for failure here. i can think of nothing that i could have done to prevent it. i routinely change the final drive Oil. I was wondering if anyone else had experienced the same problem?

34,0000 is a LOT of miles. Are you sure you have that many miles on it?

It looks like some fat finger clicking around the 0. 34,000 would be more accurate. My bad!

Yesterday I started hearing what I thought was a rear brake dragging and today I believe I have a final drive bearing going out or that has gone out. It sounds more like the final drive has no fluid in it and scraping sounds. It sounds terrible moving the rear wheel either direction and it can be felt when putting my hand on the final drive case cover. I have an 07 with 14,450 miles on it and bought it from a dealer with 13,280 miles in June and they said all the fluids had been changed and checks had been completed. I plan on pulling the fluid out of the final drive sometime in the next few days and seeing what it looks like and if any metal present. Needless to say...I'm not real happy.

Well, decided to drain the final drive oil today and found what I expected...very, very fine metal particles in the oil. Looks like I will be trailering it down to the dealer for some work. Has anyone opened up the final drive and changed anything back there? Any special tools needed? I'm an aircraft mechanic so I know my way around tools and following procedures but just wonder what I would be getting into if I try to repair myself.

You kind of need a special tool to remove the clutch bell. But one of the members here pulled the clutch bell with a long 3 or 4 arm puller.

It's actually not pressed on to the final drive input shaft all that tight, but it is very awkward to remove.

Once that's done it should be reasonably easy to remove the final drive cover to access the gears & bearings.

Here's a link to the breakdown for the final drive (transmission). Item 6 is the rear axle.

http://www.powersportsplus.com/parts/search/Honda/Scooter/2003/FSC600D+AC/TRANSMISSION/parts.html

Good luck, and please keep us informed

Tim

tvanloon, didn't your new machine albeit pre owned, come with some sort of warranty as you bought from a dealer? They must have some sort of responsibility. Or is it 'Sold as Seen' in the US?

Cosmic_Jumper...thanks for the link to the parts breakdown. My first option today will be to get some quotes from the Honda dealer and another bike dealer that has a couple Honda trained mechanics with him. If reasonable, I'll let one of them do it. I have a lot on the plate right now as my son is getting married in a few weeks and the garage is full so it would be hard to get the space to do the work. The parts list gives me an idea of what the parts should cost so I can check to see how bad they will try to rip me off.

Waspie... no warranty as the bike is too old to have any of the new warranty left and used item are usually only warranted for about 30 days here. I will be talking with them though and see what they will do if anything at all.

I'll keep you all posted. Thanks for all the input!

Also check your swingarm bearing, it might be cheaper culprit

tankyuong...thanks, I'll check it out...but with it up on the stand and spinning the back wheel it sounds pretty rough.

The problem in my Silver Wing has now been repaired. It was a bearing in the rear centrifical clutch. Pete my mechanic showed me the failed part. The total cost for the repair was $290 of which $140 was parts. It took a week of down time for part ordering and the time to fit it in the schedule.

Thought I would give an update on what happened to mine. Took it to a shop and they checked out the noise and found a couple of the bearing in the rear clutch area that were really dry so they cleaned, inspected, repacked, and put back in. They though this would be the cheapest since they said the bearings looked good yet. It cost a total of $72 dollars so I'm not complaining. Seems to be running well now.

I had the same noise in my rear wheel.
When I took the left cover off I spun the rear drive shaft bearing. ( page 10-4 in manual)
It made an awful grinding noise.
I cleaned it with brake cleaner and added a couple of drops of oil.
Spun the bearing and voila no noise.
I cleaned the excess oil, put everything back together and drove happily ever after.

Thanks old fart. I am now riding and hopefully it will be happily ever after.

old fart wrote:

I had the same noise in my rear wheel.
When I took the left cover off I spun the rear drive shaft bearing. ( page 10-4 in manual)
It made an awful grinding noise.
I cleaned it with brake cleaner and added a couple of drops of oil.
Spun the bearing and voila no noise.
I cleaned the excess oil, put everything back together and drove happily ever after.

Did you take the clutch apart to clean and oil?

After reading about your bearing failed. I decided to do a belt inspection ,drive and final drive inspection . It would rain for a few days, so It was a good time to do it. I removed the drive face and check the rollers for wear and after 28K+ they were very good,no wear and i just clean them and the drive face . I used the caliber on the driven pulley face against the drive belt and it was 27 mil. no cracks on the belt . I put the emergency brake on and removed the nut holding the driven pulley in place. I removed the clutch and I looked inside with my trouble light and what I found is that the roller ball bearing was completely dry .The grease inside the clutch was stuck on the walls and never reach the outer bearing .I removed the old thick grease and put a lighter winter grease and I spun the bearing with my finger will applying the grease . How many other Swing have dry bearing and don't Know about It?

The impression is that when you use oil for the final drive you are Lubrication the bearings in the Rear end of the bike that seems not to be the case. The final drive gearing is deep into the bike using long tubes for filling and draining. The centrifugal clutch bearing is far left on the clutch shaft closest to you when you are working on the drive belt. Are these bearing non lubing bearings? Or are they lubed through the spinning shaft? The rear clutch is a dry clutch.

I found the same dry bearing when I inspected the clutch on my 06 S/W with 35,000 miles.I believe the reason we have not had more trouble with this bearing is that it turns with the rotation of the shaft and is only spinning when at a stop,otherwise it it turns with the shaft.I also cleaned it up and packed with a small amount of high temp wheel bearing grease.

The bearing are in the clutch inners and they do spin all the time by the drive belt. The inside bearing and outer are press to the clutch. The only bearing that is seal is on the outer casing that slips on the outside of the clutch end . You need a little grease for the O ring dust cover .

PS ,NWSSC is right about the bearings spinning with the shaft when clutch is driving the wheel. I was not fully awake this morning :lol!:

This has been a great Post and Thread! Thank to all for sharing!

This has been a GREAT help in my problem salving as well.
I hope my bike last just one more ride today as I invited a man that has a BMW 650 scooter to ride with the Old Farts today and I want to race him and bring him down a notch.:lol!: :lol!: 

Thank you all for your input.

Yes a lot of information, very good.  I too have this scraping noise and pulled the CVT and the clutch today and checked every thing per the book and cleaned the bearings on the clutch and all.  I did not pull the clutch outer.  I installed the CVT and the clutch and dang the scrap is still there.  Sounds like the drive shaft bearing so the clutch outer will have to be removed and the rear wheel so I may have to have it done by Honda...  Darn just over 12,000 miles, hoipe tis is not an arm and a leg.

Magoo

Magoo did you turn the back wheel when you had everything apart ? If so did you still hear the
scraping noise with the belt off ? Could you tell where the noise was coming from with the cover off ?

For those who have a final drive noise and after a teardown and inspection it turns out to be a bearing failure, I would highly recomend replacing all 4 bearings, the oil seal, and the "O" ring. Getting the prices from a reply to this topic shows that everything I listed above would come to $56.04. A very cheep repair if you can do the work yourself. If it goes to a dealer with a shop rate of $90.00 per hr. then the repair cost will be much higher.

With the clutch removed but not the outer or we used to call the bell I did turn the wheel sever times and the scraping noise was gone.  I cleaned and repacked the bearings and greased the pins and all in the book and put it back one and noise was back.  Just with the clutch on not the belt the noise is back and. Sound test pointes to the bell (outer).  When it started in the first place I heard it lightly when being pushed in reverse.  Now at an idle if cam be hear but if you move the scoot about 6 inches than the noise goes away. If the wheel is setting right at an idle it sounds like crap.
 
I have been riding my Reflex for the last week.  I took the Wing to the Honda Dealer 2  Trikerof them and they said they did not know what it is but not to worry.  If I have to put in the shop it will not be local.  Noise, sounds like crap...works fine ride it...  Not letting them touch my Wing...
 
Magoo Triker

Magoo Triker I would have to agree with your reasoning.

I went to my shop today and they told me they were only going to replace one bearing and the seals. I asked why not replace all 4 bearings and he said that the other three were to difficult and should be taken to a welding shop and not making noise.
He said the only one making noise was the one the belt is putting pressure on.
He was gong to re-lube the others and was sure everything would be fine.
He had to borrow a special bearing puller from a Honda dealership and they told him that they have sean S/W with 70,000 on them and still no problem.
I guess I should start babying my baby and stop treating her like al BIG motorcycle. Or go with option 2, a Honda St 1300

A weld shop to replace bearings????????????.......

I think the design of the final drive (shoes and clutch drum) makes for a little more noise than we would like to here.Between some belt dust, brake shoe dust and clutch drum scoring there always seems to be a little noise from the final drive.Although the gears have some angle on the teeth to minimize noise I think we are getting noise from them.That being I have also found the clutch needle bearing (along with some other people) had to be lubricated in about 20,000 miles.I know Honda recommends there engine oil to be used in the final drive but after they found that there oil was effecting the the catalytic converter they discontinued some of the additives that they used for high load areas.That is when I started to use a different oil in the final drive.I believe all the bearings inside the final drive are lubricated from one oil source except for the clutch drum bearing.They are all ball bearings.The other final drive bearings(swing arm) appear to be sealed. If some one recommends to take it to a welding shop they may be referring to some of the swing arm bearings (page 15-10 of the over haul manual) where heat is used to remove them. I would like to open one of these unites up and check it out, as long as it is not mine.I have a 06 with 45,000 miles and just returned from a 4,500 ride back from Colorado.  Howard

[quote="Magoo Triker"]With the clutch removed but not the outer or we used to call the bell I did turn the wheel sever times and the scraping noise was gone.  I cleaned and repacked the bearings and greased the pins and all in the book and put it back one and noise was back.  Just with the clutch on not the belt the noise is back and. Sound test pointes to the bell (outer).  When it started in the first place I heard it lightly when being pushed in reverse.  Now at an idle if cam be hear but if you move the scoot about 6 inches than the noise goes away. If the wheel is setting right at an idle it sounds like crap.
 
Could it be the clutch shoes brushing against the clutch outer? When idling,the shoes may be brushing against the outer. Place your bike on the center stand and run it fast enough for the clutch to engage and listen for the noise. If the noise goes away, then it is normal. If the noise continues, it may be the drive shaft bearing.

Well any time a Honda Dealer tells me it is all right and it sounds like crap I will never take any of my Hondas there again.  As I have a Reflex I am myself going thru the clutch system and pulling the drive shaft if need to resolve this issue.  I have not put the calipers on the drive shaft yet but the bearings in the Face Set Driven look as they have over heated.  I just ordered a new Face Set  as it has the bearings installed and was only $80.  Cause I think is I drive at high speeds when traveling, sometimes set cruse at 82mph on interstates between fill ups.  Yes I need to slow it down...  I also will be pulling the clutch at each oil change as it only takes about an hour from start to finish to clean out inside the Face Set and re-grease, blow out case and CVT and back together.  To bad they used the pin bearing, weak link...

Magoo Triker

After two weeks I went to pick up my bike. The damages were only $206.00 and that included adjusting the emergency brake, replacing only one bearing. (not a Honda dealer)
While I was there I inspected the failed bearing and sure enough, there was one ball bearing that was going flat on one side and while turning, it would only be felt once and a while.
When I rode it home I was amazed how smooth, quiet fast it rode.
It almost felt like another rocket under my seat.
Thanks to all, once again for the information.

johnd wrote:

After two weeks I went to pick up my bike. The damages were only $206.00 and that included adjusting the emergency brake, replacing only one bearing.  (not a Honda dealer)
While I was there I inspected the failed bearing and sure enough, there was one ball bearing that was going flat on one side and while turning, it would only be felt once and a while.
When I rode it home I was amazed how smooth, quiet fast it rode.
It almost felt like another rocket under my seat.
Thanks to all, once again for the information.

You have any pictures of the failed ball bearing?

I think all of us would be interested in (pictures?) what particular bearing they replaced in the final drive.The $206.00 almost sounds to reasonable to take apart the final drive, inspect and replace a bearing.If the noise is gone and you are satisfied that is all that matters.  Howard

Nope. No pictures.
I had it in my hand and gave it a few turns and only about every 3rd or 4th turn would there be any noticeable difference.
I did not even think about cutting off the bearing race? to look at the one failed bearing or what the rest looked like.
It was the bearing closest to the main shaft and the has all the load placed on it.
The point was, it was done correctly and at a fare price and I was happy with the end results.

I will post some pictures of the Face Set Drive and the 2 bearings I replaced.  The only bearing bad was the needle bearing and it is a easy pull and press set.  I just ordered the whole face set drive as it was 80 bucks, got the old repaired before the new arrived, LOL.  II just have to sit and figure out how to do the picture posting again, and will show my home built tool to pull the clutch pin clip safe and easy.
 
I think if you change the final drive oil at every oil change you should not have a final drive bearing problem.  The case housing outer bearing is a relief/balance point.

Magoo Triker

Magoo Triker wrote:

  II just have to sit and figure out how to do the picture posting again, and will show my home built tool to pull the clutch pin clip safe. Magoo Triker

When you figure out how to post that picture will you please post some information about "how to do it". I, for one, have tried many times to do that but have been completely unsuccessful. Thanks

Tim

The bearings Magoo replaced are probably #'s 19 & 20 in the driven face:

http://www.servicehondapsn.com/fiche_section_detail.asp?section=2519601&category=Scooters&make=Honda&year=2006&fveh=132247.

The outer needle bearing on Helixes would also go bad if there wasn't enough grease between the outer needle and inner ball bearings.

sctr you are right...  I did not have to remove the bell.  After I pulled the clutch fully apart I replaced the drive face on the drive shaft and spin it by hand and could lightly feel the needle and hear the needle bearings.  The clutch is very simple and easy to work on.  The book tells you all the measurements to check for wear, just takes a lot of caliper time for an old fart like me.

Magoo

Are you guys saying I should pull mine and lube the bearings? The service manual I ordered on the 14th hasn't arrived yet.Is there a video or pictorial of removal?Or could anyone tell me the procedure of removal,special tool?
Thanks
Scott

I will pull mine ever 4,000 Miles clean grease inspect. Less than. 1hour time, MUST use T-wrench...

Magoo Triker

Look for driven pulley removal for swing on U tube.You can fin lot's videos there to fix and remove tupperware etc. 

Ok I found Italian vids.Here's how to pull a bell.http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yJqXC7QoaA4
That's the bearing I want to grease .Does anyone have the specs on the bell puller tools?I'd like to make them!Thanks Swings
Try this

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yJqXC7QoaA4

I am having a shop do mine. I think it was never greased as it only had 7,000 Miles on it when I got it. As stated earlier I replaced the driven face which came with both bearings I am now going to have shop REPLACE the drive shaft and final drive bearing and seal. New replacement parts were cheap about $108 shipped to my door. I just feel better doing this as the Wing is 10 years old with around 12,000 Miles.

Magoo Triker

The bell puller tool screws onto the clutch bell (there are threads on the inside - obviously outside the splines and such). But they are a very unusual size and pitch, and pretty much impossible to find a nut that will fit. I know someone who found a tap that I could have been used to make the tool, but it cost more than Honda's tool!

I know that some people have had luck with some three or four jaw pullers, although I don't think I'd go that route unless I planned on replacing the bell - I'd worry about warping it, as tolerances are very, very tight on the shape of that bell.

You'll also need a tool to put it on. But that's a lot simpler deal to fabricate (a pipe, a ton of washers, and a clutch assembly nut are what you need).

Bingo on the tool cost. That is why to do the final drive shaft and bearing and seal I have a shop doing it

Magoo Triker

How much is the tap?I like the right tools.Who has the best price on tool?

I see what you mean about pipe to put back on.I read someone used a PVC pipe and mallet.Alot of hitting!

In a few k's I'm putting on a new belt.Thats when I 'll want to grease the bearing and new seal.

The tap was around $180 or $190! The Honda tool to remove it is significantly less, so I'd recommend the Honda tool (that's what I did). That said, we have two Silverwings in the family and tend to hold onto vehicles for a long, long time - so it'll pay off for us. A one-time job might not.

I would try to minimize the hitting, if possible - the bearing isn't designed for lateral motion.

Is #16 the seal that I'll need?The Seal behind the bell.Repacking that bearing now might be over kill.I just think it's a good idea to make sure it's up for many miles ahead.