Oil for SilverWing 2013

My new SilverWing, left over 2013----is my second new SilverWing, other one was red like.

2013 rider's book says 10-30W MA. MA means no slippery stuff added------wet bike clutches slip with too much slippery stuff. SilverWing has dry clutch. Engine/trans/clutch do not share same oil supply.

First oil change I put Rottella 15-40 (MA) as it was handy. Want to go back to WalMart house brand 10-40 or even 10-30. Question: anybody had bad luck with car 10-30??

My experience with WalMart Oil is over 500,000 bike scooter miles with it and no engine trouble or clutch slip in powerful wet clutch bikes----used it in 2 Miatas, one was new. Some of my bikes went over 50,000 miles with this oil----64,000 Suzuki GS500E/Concours 56,000/Helix 50,000 miles of wide open. So the stuff works in my book, my first SilverWing liked it.

I think Honda recently in US Market now recommends 10-30 as opposed to 10-40 that was the norm for years. 1990 my first Helix (Fusion) in Japan, 10-30 was recommended in that market----engine seemed to run very smooth on that as opposed to US Market Helix on 10-40 I kept in US at the same time.


SilverWing engine is lightly stressed, hard to over rev, water cooled so temp is controlled, dry clutch, so the extra slippery stuff should not hurt anything.

Honda 10-30 in my area over $7 a Qt with tax. Checked with guys in the back of the shop where my bike came from----they said they use bulk 10-40 from barrel---which I am sure is low bid stuff and no troubles.


So any oil designers/engineers with opinion? or riders with experience on/with WalMart 10-30?? Thanks.

I use synthetic 10-40 in all of my motors. Mobil 1 is good. Mobil 1 motorcycle racing oil in all of my bikes that have wet clutch.

Mine says 10-30w MB type and I believe thats the type with no slippery stuff added cause the recomendation for my clutch type bikes is MA.Anyway after 50k miles I changed from synthetics to honda oil 10-30 MB type(SW 2007)

For wet clutch I typically use Rotella. For dry I use Mobil 1. If I recall correctly, the guy from Jacksonville that rode his SWing from FL to AK every summer always ran Walmart oil. He had somewhere around 130K miles on it when he sold it.

You also want the anti-foaming of the MA oil. Honda knew they had a dry clutch when they wrote that section, so I tend to think you should listen. Plus, your bike is under warranty, so you should consider what impact putting oil Honda doesn't approve of into your bike might cause. It's one thing if the dealer does it, quite another if you do it.

10W-40 is what I use (but the book I have, 2012, lists both 10W-30 and 10W-40, with slightly different ambient temperature ranges). I imagine 10W-30 gets slightly better fuel economy.

At this point---I will probably go with WalMart 10-40-----my 500,000 miles with it=it works, price is good, easy to find.

I think Honda went with MA 10-30 rating, non-energy saving to sell their labeled oil at $7 a qt.

I do not worry about warranty claims--- my bikes are usually in warranty and Hondas seldom blow up. What I have learned about 2 wheel warranty---if needed, make sure dealer have importer approval before work starts.....otherwise somebody gets stuck.

Can afford $7 oil...but like under $3 qt better

FWIW, there are oil companies other than Honda that sell MA 10W-30 (or MA 10W-40 for that matter).

I still like Shell Rotella T6 (5W-40), MA rated, for its superior low temp starting ability.

Who ----on 10-30 Non Energy Conserving-----at under $3.00 a qt?

For Big Bird Rottela 5W-40----not commonly available in US south----I think fine for cold starts. Rottela 15-40 around at decent price.

As long time and large mileage rider---I have always felt, oil is an additional profit center for the motorcycle business, and their brands are usually way overpriced---true in the car business, too. See BMW.

john grinsel wrote:

Who ----on 10-30 Non Energy Conserving-----at under $3.00 a qt?

For Big Bird Rottela  5W-40----not commonly available in US south----I think fine for cold starts.   Rottela 15-40  around  at decent price.

As long time and large mileage rider---I have always felt, oil is an additional profit center for the motorcycle business, and their brands are usually way overpriced---true in the car business, too.  See BMW.

John is right. Honda does not refine oil or make oil filters. They buy that stuff and mark it up for high profit.

Honda may very well may mark it up high (although I believe it's a synthetic blend, so $7/qt isn't excessively high). I don't buy it. That said, I suspect oil revenue doesn't dwarf bike sales revenue for Honda. I suspect Wal-Mart makes more selling Citgo...I mean SuperTech...oil than Honda ever does selling Honda oil (before Citgo, it was Warren Distribution that refined Wal-Mart's oil)!

There is more to the differences in motorcycle oil vs non-motorcycle oil than wet clutch stuff (hint: don't use non-motorcycle graded oil in your final drive or anywhere else where you have gears with high sheer).

That said, you can actually buy an appropriate oil per Honda's recommendations for about $4 (I know, that's almost $1 per quart!), assuming that your year's manual still indicates 10W40 is acceptable:

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Valvoline-ATV-4-Stroke-10W-40-Motor-Oil-1-Quart/19514362

That's stocked in several Wal-Marts nearby where I am, not sure if it is where you are. But it should be possible to buy a cheap oil. That said, if you already knew you wanted to use Wal-Mart oil, why did you ask the question?

jmaslak wrote:

There is more to the differences in motorcycle oil vs non-motorcycle oil than wet clutch stuff (hint: don't use non-motorcycle graded oil in your final drive or anywhere else where you have gears with high sheer).

Very good point. Also, the increased Zinc dialkyldithiophosphates (ZDDP) added to motorcycle and diesel engine oil protects the valve train (cam lobes, lifters, shims, rockers, etc) from increased loads that aren't present in most lower rpm auto gasoline engines. That increased ZDDP is not present in auto oils.

DELO 15/40W has been the oil of choice for me for many years. I used it in all the bikes I've owned as well as my cars and trucks. It performed well in my Silverwing as well for over 175,000 miles in my '93 Goldwing among others. It's a diesel based oil which holds it's viscosity better than a lot of oils designed for automotive use. What ever you use it's not too critical since as John has already mentioned the SW has a dry clutch and doesn't share it's engine oil with the transmission which are notorious for beating down those poor oil molecules reducing their viscosity.
One thing that is important is to use a coolant that contains no silicates. I've seen several GW coolant pumps fail from use of silicate containing antifreeze. The long term coolants such as Prestone 50/150 or Peak 50/150 long term antifreeze is fine.

+1 for diesel oils.

Two cents about oil. Although I have been retired from the auto industry for a few years I know the industry changes almost as rapidly as the electronics industry.That being said I will just add a link about oil and let you be the judge. Howard


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zinc_dithiophosphate

exavid wrote:

DELO 15/40W has been the oil of choice for me for many years. <>It's a diesel based oil which holds it's viscosity better than a lot of oils designed for automotive use.<>

So is diesel based oil also JASO or SAE rated to meet Honda's specifications? Is 'diesel based oil' an oil which is primarily designed for diesel engines? Is DELO a petroleum oil, full synthetic or blended synthetic oil? What does 'diesel based' mean?

Tim

DELO 15/40W is synthetic oil; I Googled it.  

Cosmic_Jumper wrote:

exavid wrote:

DELO 15/40W has been the oil of choice for me for many years. <>It's a diesel based oil which holds it's viscosity better than a lot of oils designed for automotive use.<>

So is diesel based oil also JASO or SAE rated to meet Honda's specifications? Is 'diesel based oil' an oil which is primarily designed for diesel engines? Is DELO a petroleum oil, full synthetic or blended synthetic oil? What does 'diesel based' mean?

Tim

I think he means ..oil for diesel engines

MikeO wrote:

DELO 15/40W is synthetic oil; I Googled it.  

So is it ok to use 10w/40 part-synthetic?
(Question posed just before I go off to buy oil!!)

I'd always go by what the handbook says but I doubt any decent modern oil will do much damage.

For my self I think there is nothing wrong with synthetic oil but is a waste of money in a S/W.
If it makes you feel better and you think your S/W runs better, stick with it. A few years back when Honda stopped adding Zinc in there oil I also stopped using there oil in the final drive.
I'm usually loaded to the max on our road trips and want that little extra benefit of ZINC.There probably is no more than 05-10% of S/W owners who do not use Honda oil in the final drive for one reason or other but as Noah said if it floats your boat stick with it. For extra reading check out.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/

Did find Rotella T-6 5-40 at Walmart today @$21.00 a gallon. It is Syn and doesn't appear to move too quickly.

Several years ago, 20? I did test over timed course with new Helix. Article was published----bike run from standing start---Mobil 1 was the most expensive, probably Wal Mart the cheapest. Maybe 5 oils were tried.

Course was same for each oil. Results as I recall=all speeds and time the same!! Was in Scoot Tours magazine.....so went back to my WalMart oil----the bike used was traded at 50,000 miles......and I think still running around Eau Claire
WI.


Still have no firm decision on what to use in new SilverWing---did first oil change/filter at near 600 miles----bike now has 1200 miles and by my proven schedule will change oil and filter again at 2,000 miles. Rotella "real oil" in it now 15-40.

In the AM am going to ask my favorite Honda parts man what he wants for case of the Honda stuff.

Then decision, maybe.

john grinsel wrote:

I did test over timed course with new Helix.  Article was published----bike run from standing start---Mobil 1 was the most expensive, probably Wal Mart the cheapest.  Maybe 5 oils were tried.

Course was same for each oil.  Results as I recall=all speeds and time the same!!  

What were you trying to determine?
If the brand of oil affected power output?
Not very scientific, and if there was any difference, it would only appear on an accurate dynamometer.
I think you would have had significant results if you left the original oil in, and changed the variable to whether you were riding commando or not on the closed course.

I don't change variator-----want something different I buy a motorcycle.

If oil made difference----performance/time would have been better----it didn't. Each run turned out the same---so my method of testing proved end performance---using expensive oil to add new performance, brings none. I know long range maybe exoctic oils might give you 100 miles more engine life----Helix I used provided 50,000 miles of no engine problems, I had another 3 new Helix---for total of 175,000 Helix no engine trouble miles----Honda did pay for cracked air boxes,cracked intake manifold stubs and on all four....new, expensive mufflers.....all the same at around 30,000 miles muffler guts shook apart.

john grinsel wrote:

If  oil made difference----performance/time would have been better----it didn't.   Each run turned out the same---so my method of testing proved end performance---using expensive oil to add new performance, brings none.    I know long range maybe exoctic oils might give you 100 miles more engine life---

I don't recall anyone on this forum ever saying using synthetic oil increased engine output. (That means make more horsepower, John).

Synthetic oils provide added engine protection from wear and acid buildup in the crankcase. They also last longer before breaking down.

If Wallyworld house brand oil works for you, great, keep using it.
But for some of us, automotive oil is not acceptable for use in our Honda engine, and yes, we know there is no wet clutch in a Silverwing.

Funny thing is---few if any on this forum, actually ride enough to wear engine out.

john grinsel wrote:

Funny thing is---few if any on this forum, actually ride enough to wear engine out.

Remember, it's not the miles, but the time as well. Any engine will corrode internally without ever being used. I would think in those situations, of which there are many older members who put on few miles every year, a top quality JASO MA approved synthetic oil would provide the most protection.

agree on time---I do every 60 days or 2,000 miles which ever come first....maybe overkill but works for me---no engine trouble for last 500,000 miles.

At that time or miles I drain out some real crap.

My 2002 Swing has 50K miles, and at my last oil change last month, I started using Mobil1 10-30 oil in both my engine and final drive. Someone mentioned that it is not good to use automotive oils in the final drive.  Based upon that comment, I am now concerned about using Mobil1 in my final drive.  Should I go back to the Honda oil in my final drive, or am I worrying over nothing?

I my self stooped using Honda engine oil when they eliminated Zinc from there oil because of possible damage to the catalytic converter.I usually have my S/W loaded to the max when travailing on road trips and like the little extra benefit of the Zinc.That being said I do not think there is any harm in using Mobil 1 in the final drive.

NWSSC wrote:

I my self stooped using Honda engine oil when they eliminated Zinc from there oil because of possible damage to the catalytic converter.I usually have my S/W loaded to the max when travailing on road trips and like the little extra benefit of the Zinc.That being said I do not think there is any harm in using Mobil 1 in the final drive.

Thank you.  

I wouldn't use an auto oil in the final drive due to shear. A synthetic oil is probably slightly better, as would be a gear oil (note that the viscosity numbers are rated differently for gear oil than engine oil, so you *don't* want a 10W-30 gear oil but something with a much higher number).

One of the major differences between motorcycle and non-motorcycle oil is shear resistance. This is how much the oil's viscosity breaks down over the life of the oil. The two places hardest on the oil for shear in the Swing are the final drive (the gears) and the shell bearings in the engine (I also really like that most motorcycle oils have better anti-foaming to cope with continuous higher revs, as I don't want a bubble of air in the shell bearings). Being that Honda didn't spec an automotive oil for these, but something where one of the two actual certification differences is shear resistance, I don't think I'd take a chance. It's not worth it. Mobile 1 makes an outstanding motorcycle oil.

Can you get 50,000 or more miles out of an engine without using what Honda recommends? Sure, these are amazing little engines. Do I think you'll put less wear on your engine getting there with MA oil? Yes.

I've done the price calculations - the cost of the oil is less significant than making sure your tires are properly inflated for the cost of ownership (and is dwarfed by things like the purchase price over the life of the scooter). So if you're trying to save money, check your tires every day and don't worry about what the oil costs. If you pay $9K and get 50,000 miles, you're paying 18 cents per mile for purchase cost (assuming you run it into the ground - obviously if you sell it for $4,500 with 50,000 miles, you're spending 9 cents per mile). If you spend $20 on oil each oil change, and you do it every 4K miles, you're spending half a cent per mile on oil - if you do it every 2K, you're spending 1 cent per mile on oil. Less than a cent of mile is worth treating my baby right. $20 in oil for oil changes at 4K will cost you about $250 over 50,000 miles - hardly the end of the world on a $9,000 machine. You'll pay way more in gas (probably about $3,000+ in gas using USA prices).

I know about shear----but I have ridden these rubber band drive scooters over 300,000 miles with WalMart 10-40....and not trouble.....and seldom rear end oil changes. Don't think it is critical area.

Soon will make decision as to what oil I will use for the time I keep the bike.

Found 10-30 MA in Suzuki/Kawasaki shop for $4.99 a qt today.

I found out that the MA standard is mainly there for motorcycle that require it for wet clutch applications. Since the Swing is a dry clutch, I feel that the MA based oils for the final drive is not needed. See below from Wikipedia.

JASO

The Japanese Automotive Standards Organization (JASO) has created their own set of performance and quality standards for petrol engines of Japanese origin.

For four-stroke gasoline engines, the JASO T904 standard is used, and is particularly relevant to motorcycle engines. The JASO T904-MA and MA2 standards are designed to distinguish oils that are approved for wet clutch use, and the JASO T904-MB standard is not suitable for wet clutch use.

For two-stroke gasoline engines, the JASO M345 (FA, FB, FC) standard is used,[18] and this refers particularly to low ash, lubricity, detergency, low smoke and exhaust blocking.

These standards, especially JASO-MA (for motorcycles) and JASO-FC, are designed to address oil-requirement issues not addressed by the API service categories. One element of the JASO-MA standard is a friction test designed to determine suitability for wet clutch usage.[9][19] An oil that meets JASO-MA is considered appropriate for wet clutch operations. Oils marketed as motorcycle-specific will carry the JASO-MA label.

Sheesh. If all you are ever going to do is put 50,000 miles on your Silverwing AND change oil every 2-3000 miles then I think that you could safely use re-refined motor oil and a Walmart filter without a problem.

How's that for a new can of worms?

Tim

With the exception of those with integral transmissions the water cooled bike engines don't put any more stress on oils than the typical small engine in an automobile. Since the SW has a dry clutch and no internal transmission there really isn't any need for specialized oils, any good quality motor oil in the proper viscosity should work as well as any other. I used DELO 400 15W40 in my Goldwing that does have an integral transmission and wet clutch. I used the stuff for 175,000 miles in my '93 GL1500. When I sold it the engine was running fine, no oil added between 5000 mile changes, clean spark plugs and exhaust pipe. This with a transmission that's a lot harder on the oil than the engine itself. I used the same stuff in the two SWs I've had, likewise the Burgman 650 and that will be going into my BMW when it comes up to an oil change. Oh, yeah... I also use it in my lawnmower and four stroke weed whacker/edger. I really don't think anyone should get their knickers in a knot over what type oil goes in these things. If it's the right viscosity for the temperature range, most of us don't ride in seriously cold weather, and it fits the alphabetic mumbo jumbo in the manual and on the oil can it should be just fine whether it's made of old dinosaurs or test tube residue.

As for the final drive not being a harsh environment, most cars don't have a tiny volume of oil in a space with lots of gears and zero filtration (so wear would be bad, even if it doesn't destroy the gears, as bearings don't like metal particles). Sure, it's not hot, but it is a tough environment. And I'm personally in no hurry to replace any of the bearings back there. Think shear.

As for the engine being like a car engine, it's like a car engine that runs at 6,000+ RPM for hours at a time. Think foaming.

These are different requirements than the typical car has. I use oil that has these requirements in mind.

I doubt there are many engine oils on the shelves that doesn't have some anti-foaming additives. It doesn't seem to me that the stress on lubricants in the final drive is much if any greater than that of an automobile differential. True it's larger but there's more pressure on the gears and the amount of oil to mass of gears is probably much the same as on the scooter. Use what you like but I don't think there's any reason to go beyond what the manufacturer recommends.

I have a 2013 Honda Silver Wing that seems to have an oil leak. Today is Monday and the Honda Dealer is closed. The oil dip stick shows the oil near the bottom mark of the stick while on center stand. Until I go to the dealer tomorrow, Tuesday, what type of oil should I add? Synthetic or natural oil? Please help as I need to ride today and not sure what type of oil to use in topping if off until tomorrow.

IMHO it wont make any difference. The dealer will probably have to drain the oil to repair the oil leak which is quite possibly originating at the stator cover or the wire grommets in the stator cover. My 2¢

Tim

Update on my oil leak and a temporary fix.  

After reading a whole ton of material here, I decided to add some natural oil.  To get me through the day until I have it serviced for the leak on Wednesday, I added about 1/2-cup of 10W40 natural oil to bring it up to 3/4 full on the dip stick.  I feel much better now knowing that a blend won't blow up my bike though I strongly suspect that natural oil was used in my last oil change.  Not being mechanically proficient, I chose not to mess with this new bike which I love.

Thanks Tim, for your feedback and everyone else who contributes to this forum.

Steve

All oil is compatible with the other oils, reading the fine print on the back of the bottle (s ) that should be stated. Thinking about it what are the synthetic blends but a mix of two types.

I took my Silver Wing 2013 to the dealer today and learned exactly what Tim had predicted. Stator cover or the wire grommets in the stator cover.

The lead mechanic told me it was no big deal and that I should keep an eye on it should it begin to get worse. He told me that I could likely hold off until my 12,000 mile check up, which would be in about 2,0000 miles from now.

My question is: should I wait until the next checkup, or attempt it myself.

It doesn't sound like much, really. Though I can be somewhat mechanical, I'm wondering if this is too much for me to do. He also told me that the stator doesn't have a gasket and is solely sealed with an applied sealant. He would charge me $180 to do this job.

Any comments and/or feedback?


Thanks, all!
Steve

Do an Archive search for "Bad Stator" (parts 1,2 & 3). I posted a "How to" when I replaced a bad stator on my '03 S'Wing. Resealing the stator cover & grommets are the same job minus the replacing the stator itself. It is not a difficult job but it is time consuming.